I think both business models are are full of potential problems to be honest, if that was your point. Both models have their own flaws and holes to fall into, but it was the bulls' model which fell into through trapdoor when one of the problem areas arose.

This though was our bad luck. It [icould[/i have been that one of the business empires, owned by a wealthy backer went pear shaped and the backer was consequently unable to service his club's debts - this is the real point, not the working losses, we and others, are making.

The clue is in the Avatar



I'm taking that as a compliment.

I think you used the right word there, "if".

I believe £3 million is still in the top half of the balance sheet: that was a loan from the director in Singapore which is to be paid back. McManus made that clear in a statement around year end when the accounts were released.


Isn't this the case for most sports clubs though? Take away rich backers from big soccer clubs and what is left is unsustainable surely? Man Utd have massive debt do they not? But they can service it; just as Saints can service theirs. It is when the debt becomes overwhelming that a club slips into administration surely and it appeared to be the point at which the bank withdrew the overdraft facility for the Bulls (after they had perhaps foolishly released their claim on the Odsal lease) that everything went pearshaped for them because they could no longer service what debt they had or indeed meet their running costs.

While I have no difficulty with McManus offering support to the Bulls I have objected to his negative comments concerning expansion. David Hughes, for example, has made massive sacrifices to keep the Broncos alive and McManus as someone who has done similarly (but with something to show for it, unlike Hughes) should have kept quiet about expansion clubs.

Incidentally, I think it is interesting that Saints did not advertise their intention to reimburse the away ticket money to the Bulls prior to the match. It may be worth a little thought. McManus is a wily operator. He didn't get into the top 50 bankers in the world by not being a wily operator.

Hughes is an odd case - tonnes spent but not many would argue it is has been well-directed. With any sort of joined-up thinking on the marketing side we could have a thriving club down there.

I would be interested to know whether the SL clubs work together on one-size-fits-all ways in which to make their businesses more likely to break even. While some are geographical competitors, surely the bigger threat is football and/or apathy?

Soccer is a big competitor, but I'm not sure what you can do about it - or even if it's possible to do anything about it; it's the global sport around which all others revolve. We can't escape the coverage from TV and the press nor can we compete with the money that is thrown at the sport, so at best, we're in a position of trying to fit in alongside it. We tried moving to Sunday and then Summer but soccer is seven days a week and virtually 12 months a year, so there's no escape. We've tweaked the game to make it simpler and quicker and more exciting, all of which should make it more accessible to soccer followers, but we still struggle.

You missed out RU in the competitors list, btw. I know that with RU, unlike soccer, we're not aiming at the same demographic for supporters, but the higher financial level they achieve the easier it is for them to attract our players. If our stars go to them, we may as well shut up shop in terms of being a large national spectator sport

There is no logical reason that RL cannot increase attendances at all clubs , however no 2 clubs will have exactly the same way of doing it, its just a case of finding what you particular club needs to do, and doing it, however we are not talking ' quick fix ' , and that is the problem, the RFL and the clubs are inherently lazy , it comes from success and money, ie the people running our clubs and the sport are by definition ' financially successful ' and therefor have lost the understanding of what got them that success in the 1 st place

Well, no. Neither is there any logical reason why attendances won't decrease. Or why the won't go up at some clubs, and down at other clubs.


Well, there you go. Problem solved, you want to patent that.


Ah. Well, that must be the problem.


That seems so obvious when you point it out. Someone who is good at business completely loses the understanding of how to do it once they start running a RL club. Again, obvious, really. So, what we need is a bunch of business failures, to get the mirror effect, am I right?

You know, you really don't half spout some bollox.

A simple question? , are Chelsea a successful football club?

Just because you dont understand the point being made doesnt make the point wrong, it just means you dont understand it

To you 2 simple questions

Are Chelsea a successful football club?

Are Chelsea a successful business?

Nothing to do with whether I understand it or not. Simply a matter of you talking out of your ärse again.

I bet the likes of e.g. McManus and Davy and Moran and Caddick would have something to say about your absurd assertion that being financially successful means you must have forgotten how you became financially successful. And would be interested in just why you feel you are qualified to talk about them in that way.

Adey can't you see the fishing line, just slip away quietly and ignore him!

After about 13 years of using boards I recently decided to put a few of the newer morons on 'ignore', including that one - the advice is spot on Blotto, and if I could just add, that if anyone really really [ireally[/i feels they have no choice but to confront moronic outbursts head on (believe me I can fully understand why you might), could you do it without quoting them? Then my blood pressure doesn't have to rise!!

So, are Chelsea a successful football club? , simple question

So why if they are all so clever and successful are all their stadiums not sold out and all their clubs turning a profit?

Sound advice, and followed.

Whenever you pin this one down with something irrefutable, it just comes back with a different question and never addresses the point it has just so spectacularly failed on. Pointless trying to debate with the likes of it, so best on the ignore list. Leave it to the 'Vark to see it off from time to time, since he enjoys assisting it when it shows itself up.

And I had you down as a reasonably intelligent person willing to discus things reasonably, seems I was wrong, when the last lot of owners took control of Bradford, I'm sure they were much lauded as succssesful businessmen who would make the Bulls a better club both on and off the field, so what went wrong? , how do perfectly competant businessmen become complete muppets when they get involved in pro sport?

I know it's our position, or, at least, people's perception of our position, which causes this pointless rubbish to be posted here, but surely it's obvious that, even if their skewed vision of reality were to be even remotely correct, that it's chuff all to do with us? We have no say in it, no control over it and no idea where it's all leading to, so why do they feel this pressing need to unburden themselves of all this bile and venom in our direction?

We can all understand that not everyone is going to be happy but we're just fans; just like them, we turn up and pay our money and abusing us will be totally ineffectual in achieving their aims -whatever they may be.

It makes them feel important. And it's relatively easy to kick someone when they are down, even if it's not behaviour most folk would find particularly civilised.

The vitriolic Trolls are relatively few but they seem to a have an inordinate effect on our passionate supporters on this forum
Why do we even think we can reason with them? Why do we respond to them? A response means like dumb fishes we have taken a sucker bait and continue to get played at the end of a line.

This forum should continue to be open and fair to everyone with reasoned questions and opinions
But FFS if a post looks like a troll do'nt put you mouth around the hook.
Just swim away.

" Mummy, mummy, please make that nasty person go away please mummy "

Not wanting to upset all you delicate little things I'll keep off here

SL? , yer avin a laff

Does anyone know the current situation? What are we waiting for now? Its all gone very quiet, or are the RFL just waiting until the league fixtures are completed. Tell us something!!

looking likely there'll be some news late today or tomorrow according to various twitter feeds. Sutcliffe/Khan bid likely to be approved.

Which ones?