Oh aye, with the Daily Wail calling everyone who disagrees a traitor and, no doubt, the working class Tories saying, "they're only doing it for our own good".

[url=http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/15235877.Look_who_came_for_dinner__A_listers_have_been_dining_out_in_Saltaire/?ref=mr&lp=1New BBC Drama - Gunpowder[/url

So, BBC have finished shooting a new drama regarding the Gunpowder plot. Coincidence?

Explain to me where you get this from. The European Court of Auditors has audited the EU’s accounts annually since 1994.

Since when has any Brexit voter needed any kind of proof of anything. Just believe the lies they are peddled by the Daily Rags.

Have any of them questioned the 350 million yet? Have any of them questioned the fact that it is going to cost us hundreds of millions even to start the exit?

No, let's just carry on believing it's going to be best for the country. Without anyone actually ever saying how.

If you say so. Any details about the first twenty odd years ?

I doubt Nigel has worked in the coal industry for 41 years or voted Labour since he was allowed to vote .

This Nigel if thats what you want to call me worked in the coal industry for 41 years and voted Labour from the time he could vote. I hope I'm allowed an opinion even if my name was Nigel .

I don't really understand your response but it's not about what I say, it's about certifiable fact. If you want to read any of the audit reports they are all publicly available. This is sadly another example of a lie spread by UKIP which the working man took at face value and most will never spend the 2 minutes of time it would take to check.

Quote ="Lilfatman"I'm a silvertop and when I bugger off I hope we will have really left that corrupt organisation called EU. How we can still be in something that has'nt been audited for years I'll never understand. I'm old enough to remember how we had to destroy umpteen orchards to be allowed in and don't start me on the destroyed Fishing industry. Being forty you would'nt know how we managed before, and don't worry about trade the EU lorries will still be arriving containing about 80% more than they take back and quite possibly be delivering a few illegals.'" Not true. https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditor ... eu-budget/

Quote ="Lilfatman"I'm a silvertop and when I bugger off I hope we will have really left that corrupt organisation called EU. How we can still be in something that has'nt been audited for years I'll never understand. I'm old enough to remember how we had to destroy umpteen orchards to be allowed in and don't start me on the destroyed Fishing industry. Being forty you would'nt know how we managed before, and don't worry about trade the EU lorries will still be arriving containing about 80% more than they take back and quite possibly be delivering a few illegals.'" Not true. https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditor ... eu-budget/

I also grew up in the Doncaster coalfields. I wore my working class credentials & Yorkshireness proudly & vocally. Since the last election & Brexit I am ashamed of both.

The coal industry is a microcosm of the Tory attitude to society. It was cycnically destroyed, not because of economics or climate concerns, but because it was a highly unionised public owned body, symbolic of post-WW2 socialism.

That's the trouble with modern day communication - You cant use it as toilet paper

Majority of comments on thread - anti May - the majority of votes pro - think we can all see now that this will be reflected in the actual poll next month as well.

For me the most nauseating part of this whole disaster is Brexiters wrapping themselves in the Union Jack and distorted images of the golden past, when in fact their main driver is to totally emasculate the democratic structure of the country and hand it on a plate to a tiny number of global corporations who of course have everyone's best interests at heart?

That is clearly not the case. I'm sure very few people's main driver is to hand power to global corporations.

The poll results on this thread are interesting and do seem to reflect wider society where a left leaning minority are more vocal on social media, whilst a silent majority tend to vote right.

For me, the left have to find a way of engaging those who vote right that doesn't tell them they are racist, stupid, xenophobic etc. And they need to recognise the value of strong leadership. People like to follow a strong leader. Even if it's not quite down the path they'd like.

I don't like strong 'leaders' and never have. Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Mugabe, Pinochet the list is endless, were all strong leaders. I was going to throw Thatcher in there too, but I guess that might be thought a teensy bit over the top.

The best 'Leaders' recognise the need to compromise and to put their own party, class or personal interests aside when deciding what is best for the country as a whole. We never ever get one like that, so I dislike 'leaders'. They don't lead me.

I'll wager at some point in your life you have followed a strong leader. At work or playing sport.
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The Hitler example is interesting because his aggression was made worse by the fact that Britain had a weak leader in Chamberlian

At work I did as my line manager asked, who ever they were. As one of them once told a colleague, "At the end of the day we're both here to do as I want". The best managers though, are open to debate and suggestions, but obviously hold the final decision. There has been the odd demagogue who feels he is always right and, on those thankfully rare occasions, I've just kept my head down and got on with it. I have worked for the vast majority of my life and always got paid, so that system works well enough.

Did all the other countries Hitler attacked have 'weak' leaders?

I had a boss who told me people are there to do what she told them to do. I believe we are there to work together.
I saw her as a very week leader as that was the only way she could get people to do things - threaten them - at least in her mind.
I have had great bosses who led by example, explained clearly how to do it then left you to get on with it. They were confident that they could leave us with it. To me, they were strong leaders who got things done without trying to boss people about.

Possibly your and my definition about the word "strong" is different. I don't see dictators or bully type bosses as strong people. I think they are weak who need to use power to gain things because they can't do it properly. Strong has different meanings. A strong mother bringing up kids by herself after a death is totally different in that context.

I think we both agree though that a good boss works with you and encourages and trains you so you do things for them without even being asked. Good strong bosses are like good referees. You hardly know they are there at times.
Interesting topic to discuss how different people see things.

Don't know if that was directed at me or not. The definition of 'strong' was made by a previous poster to be fair, not by me - I just went along with it for the purposes of a response. You're probably correct, those who brook no arguments are probably not really strong - it just depends on context, or how you personally view things, I suppose.

I agree with you that leaders who get along with staff and treat them like adults generally get the best response. Some might say that is weak and isn't 'leading', but it is creating a workmanlike atmosphere and getting the job done, which is actually the important bit. Incidentally, the guy in my earlier post who made the remark about doing it his way, was talking to a bloke who needed reminding who was in charge.

As I've been in the position of manager myself, I've often said that, much as most would say you should, you can't actually treat everyone [iexactly[/i the same, since people, as individuals, respond differently to the same treatment. When blame is being apportioned some react better to being told they've let you down, some need encouragement, and yes, some need a kick up the booty, and a reminder.

Bulliac, I was just picking up on the "strong" word and it reminded me of many conversations down the years about what makes a good leader / boss.
It is a good point you make about how different people need a different approach. I used to think it all came down to experience but I am not sure it is only experience. My line manager at the moment is near retirement and he is appalling in the way he treats people - do it my way or else attitude. You have probably met many like that. The top boss is just over half my age and is terrific. He listens and takes in what people say which encourages them to contribute but he then decides. He explains why we have to do it that way and how we will all benefit.
I myself have had different management jobs but am now close to early retirement and work part time and am finding it very nice to be near the bottom of the ladder again for the next few years. There are lots of good managers but few excellent ones and they usually move on quickly to better themselves. We could talk for hours on this topic and probably end up in the same place describing the same type of person.

I have been a gaffa and a employer, now I'm just a normal employee. I have always thought, from both sides of the fence, a happy worker is a good worker. Create the best environment as a boss and your workers give more

Quote ="billypop"Not true. https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditor ... eu-budget/'" Sorry about the choice of words. Delete never been audited insert rarely passed as correct. Still wondering about the first 20 years figures.

Quote ="billypop"Not true. https://fullfact.org/europe/did-auditor ... eu-budget/'" Sorry about the choice of words. Delete never been audited insert rarely passed as correct. Still wondering about the first 20 years figures.

I've had all sorts over the years mate. I keep saying that, "one day I'll write a book", though I reckon it will remain the same unfulfilled ambition it is now!

I think you missed my point, I am sure the majority of people who voted for Brexit do not want this to happen - but the Brexit leaders: Farage, Banks, and the Tory hard-right certainly do even if they don't care to say it.

What's more relic, if we are desperate enough to find trade agreements, and we accept a TTIP type deal from the 'good ol' USA, that's exactly what we'll get. From being "run by" a democratic EU to being run by undemocratic multi nationals - some "taking back control".

You are right Bulliac, you cannot just rock up, shake a few hands and get a good trade deal as the Brexiters seem to think as:
1) Most Trade deals now take up to 10 years to negotiate
2) After 40 years in the EU the UK actually doesn't have enough trained negotiators and is trying to poach them from the Kiwis.
3) Big countries get better deals, small countries get f*****d over, so Britain has cleverly gone from being part of the world's largest trading bloc to being out on our lonesome
4) I think it was Liam Fox who went and asked the Indians if they fancied a Free Trade Deal with what was left of the of the former UK, they said maybe if you give freer access to Indian citizens going to the UK! But they were very polite and asked Liam if his job as paid front man for a shady far right lobby group - sorry cabinet minister was going well.
Its all going to be even harder than signing a couple of decent front rowers for the Bulls!