So WB would be the only one out there then?

However, nice try at trying to deflect the blow away from you after being a little shown up. I had trawled through a pile of WB posts on my phone last night but RER saved me the hassle.



edit [url=http://viewtopic.php?t=410771&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20actually, here you are[/url

Shown up???

That evidently has a different meaning from where you're from ME



I'm grateful to RER for highlighting the post. I had asked for a clarification that was factually and politely answered, as ever, by RER.

Thanks for your linky too fella. Hope it didn't put you to too much trouble. I still think there was more than a little bit of a machiavellian tilt to your original comment that tried to make it sound like there were a host of people with that view, but hey, who said it was wrong to let a few simple facts get in the way of a good story

And there was me thinking you thought I could not direct you to the right place too.

OK, I accept "knee jerk" probably wasn't the best choice of phrase.

Have the club gone backwards under Steve? Without doubt you would have to say that, yes it has.

Is it purely down to Steve? I really don't think it is.

Just goes to show how wrong you can be then fella, doesn't it

. . . . Don't take it to heart though, there's no shame in it. Although, if you need closure in that way to make you feel better about yourself ME, then fine, knock yourself out



I asked you to show me where the comments were. You (and RER) did that. If I'd have believed you couldn't have done that I'd have said so outright and / or littered the post with laughing emoticons



So thanks for showing me one (possibly two) recent comments to quantify your "there are some on here" post. Much appreciated

Have already e-mailed the relevant people referance this subject and others, hopeing for a reply but who knows

Why have i been dragged in to this.

You haven't really TBH RER.

My apologies if I made you feel that you'd been dragged into this particular melee RER. It certainly wasn't my intention and I didn't realise it could be read that way - having reread, I appreciate that it could be.



Hells teeth.

We agree on [isomething[/i. . . . (slopes off and cuts wrists in dismay)

What are the board waiting for.

The bloke is still here. Have they forgotten what they need to do?

And that is your classic [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patellar_reflexknee-jerk[/url. Not so much in the time taken, rather the thought process evident. Team = 13th therefore coach = sack, much like blow to the knee = jerk of the lower leg.

Dont know how you have come to that conclusion really.

There has been a gradual decline under the tenure of SM.

We have a squad with much more potential than it is showing. Most of the players arent bad players but they are playing like bad players at the moment. To me this says more about the coach than anyone else.

Probably the most worrying thing about all this is that the fans seem to be leaving in their droves. Granted this is not all down to SM but im sure watching a winning team wouldnt do any harm at all. Say what you like about glory hunters etc, people dont want to see teams who lose every week.

So I dont want to sound dramatic but yes it seems that SM could be damaging the club long term.

Obviously he doesnt mean to be a poor coach and I appreciate that they are trying to turn it around but how many more times can you take "I will turn it around" etc etc only to see it not happening on the pitch.

I was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, I was sticking by him long after others had turned. Only a few weeks ago I cringed when I read the posts of people like Mystic Eddie.

But I dont believe he can now recover this position. This season is a write off, and we might as well start planning for next season now imo. We need someone with the motivational skills to drag us out of the hole. A fresh start.

I still don’t buy in to the “it’s all SM’s fault”.
I think the decline started before he was placed in charge. He has had to arrest that decline and try and stabilise the club (not on his own obviously), then begin to implement things to start the rebuilding process. This isn’t going to happen in a matter of weeks or months, it will be a number of years.
On this seasons performances, yes you would have liked to think we’d be going a little better. However, we are struggling for bodies; I know that is wheeled out too often as an excuse, but look at what’s been sat on the sidelines this season. Many of the top players have had spells out. I like to see how any business reacts to having a large percentage of its top earners sat in the canteen.

Not to worry. You have finally seen the light.

And you never will.

It's got to the stage where everyday it's the same argument. Some people will back McNarama no matter what and others want him out.

The only thing i'd say is that the camp for wanting him out is growing and has recruited some of the more respected posters.

As long as Solomona paid for his food I would be delighted.

I'd rather prioritise long-term concerns than get hung up on the ten minutes before the game and at half-time. And that's where the knee-jerk criticism is valid. The failure of the Sack Mac contingent is to fully consider the whole picture. They want things sorted and they want it yesterday.

I'm still at a loss to now precisely what rebuilding means in this context. Do we have to knock everything down first, because this seems to be what is happening? Much like all this positive tendency/negative tendency - what's negative about wanting a first team that plays with pride, consistently and performs somewhere near their potential, and how exactly is it positive to hold the 'nothing can be done' (because of finances/rebuilding etc) position as crowds and league position decline.

We all know that without a financial backer with clout and a notoriously precarious walk up audience things can slide quickly. What impact do you think a second half of the season that is anywhere near the first half will have on season ticket sales, and how exactly will that be offset by some fictional rebuilding, particularly when the coach admits he doesn't know how to get the best from the players he has?

I am considering the whole picture...

2 Seasons Ago...average

Last Year...average

This season...way below average

Recruitment...in the main poor

Attendances...down

What else should I considering?

I mean I havent got access to backroom etc so all I can really go on is results and performances and what I see and Im not liking what I see.

You obviously want SM to stay, fair enough I thought the same 2 weeks ago but there has to come a time when you draw the line.

How many years should we give him?

Average? 2007? - finished a close 3rd - winning only 3 points less than the unbeaten Saints? That's "average"? Er, I don't think so. How quickly some memories fade!



In connection with that, and the question about what constitutes rebuilding, we have been blessed with a fine dynasty in SL but here's the 2005 Final squad:-

Michael Withers - GONE
Leon Pryce - GONE
Ben Harris - GONE
Shontayne Hape - GONE
Lesley Vainikolo - GONE
Iestyn Harris - GONE
Paul Deacon
Jamie Peacock - GONE
Ian Henderson - GONE
Stuart Fielden - GONE
Paul Johnson - GONE
Brad Meyers - GONE
Lee Radford - GONE

Robbie Paul - GONE
Jamie Langley
Adrian Morley - GONE
Joe Vagana - GONE

I'd just make the point, which I've made before, and no doubt will have to make again, that if you almost completely dismantle a title winning side, it's the end of an era. You need to deal with this fact.

Now, if you then go on and argue why didn't we scour the globe and buy up another title-winning squad, I'd just tell you life ain't like that. You can't buy a title. You could of course point out that all the other teams, bar Leeds, also failed to construct a team to win the title, or even challenge Leeds/Saints' current hegemony - but that would be too realistic.

You could ask, why, given that pretty much the entire title winning squad is gone, didn't McNamara just go out and replace them all, man for man, with an equally title-winning squad. I'd say anyone who thinks, or thought, that Bradford had some god-given right to always win everything, or perennially keep challenging for 1-2, was either a child or a lunatic. But that's the reason we aren't a top team any more- it's a 95% different team, and that's how it goes.

The squad we do now have should, of course, have done much better in terms of results, in terms of some games and in terms of parts of other games, but recruitment, which "in the main" has brought in players of the calibre of Morrison, Menzies, Tadulala, Worrincy, Lynch etc. may be alot of things but "poor" is just silly.

Why the squad we have got has spluttered and underachieved this year as it has is a good and valid question, but you won't be helped in looking for the answer if you overlook the facts or ignore the obvious.

If the whole picture includes dwindling crowds, embarrassing results, poor recruitment, increased apathy from the support and complete lack of confidence in the coach, then I reckon that a lot of people have done exactly that, as often gets mentioned on here.

He has also been given the credit for his work in emphasising the youth policy and we will see if that does bear fruit in time I guess.

It is also widely accepted that we are not exactly rolling in cash at the moment, Odsal is a drain on the resources and the OSV is less likely to been seen in existence than the Loch Ness Monster.

We have also been told by the Chairman that we are spending full cap so we cannot really use that as an excuse, and therefore, again this raises questions about the quality of recruitment and/or whether the money is being badly used.

I also accept that we have had injuries to the likes of Morrison, Solomona, Lynch, Nero etc but all clubs get injuries so, as unfortunate as it is, we have to deal with it and get the best out of what we have at our disposal.

Which raises another point. As we all know, I have to do my majority of watching of RL on Sky, and Bradford are obviously no exception to this. This is where I am less able to comment but the general view on here is that the effort that is getting put in is not really good enough and questions will rightly be raised about this.

So, that is my take on the situation and if there is anything else in the picture that I am not aware of, perhaps you would like to let us know?

There are 3 reasons why we haven't been able to replace those players:

1) Money - it simply cannot be the case that the current squad are being paid anything like those players, surely?

2) Youth development -that squad had strong core of Bulls developed players. We're currently paying a hefty price for the failure to sustain that from 2000 to 2006.

3) Recruitment - I do think it has generally been poor. Our success from 1997 to 2005 owed a lot to inspired recruitment of hidden gems such as Withers, Gartner, forshaw & Anderson. Of our recent sigings, only Morrison (targeted initiallly by Noble) has proved to be a consistently better player than was expected. The others have been extremely inconsistent.

The cut and thrust of it is that we have lost good players recently but we still have a good team with potential. Its just that our coach is not bringing out this potential.

We are second bottom of the league, we are lucky the franchise system was introduced otherwise we might be in danger of relegation. Although the way things are going we probably wont get a licence next time.

Buck stops with the coach im afraid.

But that's just a cliche. We all know that 99% of all coaches go, sooner or later, most having a quite short tenure, and that's basically for two reasons, first all teams sooner or later end up doing worse than the (usually unrealistic) expectations and second, in that situation they can either sack the team or sack the coach; but (obviously) you can't sack the team and that is why the "buck" always stops with the coach.

It may or may not be the coach's fault - but he will pay for it.

(In fact I'd also reckon that in most cases the "fault" is shared between the players, board and coach, but a large part is fans who put boards under pressure.)

Look at Bradford City, the other team in the city to have an ex-player called S. Mc coaching them. City ended up having an appalling season, crashing out of the playoff race like a lead weight from a plane, and played for the last couple of months like partially sighted, unfit chimps, yet McCall hasn't gone.

On the contrary, a campaign was launched to persuade him to stay! As the fans love him, and reckon it was the players let them [uand him[/u down. So they clamour to keep him, despite the failure, and despite the obvious fact that when the chips were down he could hardly coach his side to kick a ball, let alone gain a point.

I don't think we have unrealistic expectations but personally I don't expect us to be second bottom and neither can it be said that we don't consider the whole picture....3 years is a long time to consider after all.

We obviously have space under the cap hence why we were able to go after Bird and yes recruitment is part of the issue of where we are now. I would however point out that i do not believe the current squad is delivering on it's potential and SM has been in charge long enough to be able to sort out signings and instill his methods.

We are not performing and haven't been for a while, people seem to be laying the blame at the fact of the squad we had and what it is now, I know we don't have a benefactor and we don't "exploit" loopholes but even so Saints have managed to keep their position. Am i saying we should still be there fighting to be number 1, of course what true fan wouldn't but in reality I except change and perhaps we are not as well off as others, but to drop so far in such a short period of time is alarming.

We seem to go in circles, we lose then people moan then a few days after when it's calmed down a bit the pro mac supporters come out again telling us that we have unrealistic expectations and we should be glad of the job he's doing, we're not considering the bigger picture and it'll all come good in the end.

You know what I hope it does, but i don't think it will unless somethings changed, as you say the only thing that can be changed short term is the manager.

We need to move forward as a club and i see no messages coming from the club about rebuilding e.t.c the only message that's being sent out at the moment is the defeats, attendances and our position in the league table. If we have a long term plan do we really have to slump to these depths to deliver it? If we do, why is the club not communicating the vision?