I think thats right, and I'd agree with the rfl making the rules varied but open to their own interpretation of each individual case, because they will all be different and offer different opportunities and threats to the wider game.

People need to stop thinking this is all black and white, its just not as simple as that. I wouldn't like to be in the rfl's position tbf.

Interesting reading the interpretation of the rules.

It does seem to indicate, a member will cease to be a member when they are served with a winding up order, or when an administrator is appointed, as a result of a winding up petition.

As it stands, we havn't yet been served with a winding up petition, we volunteered to go into administration.

Clutching at straws, I know....

Now that the wages have been paid for a month, the shop stock sold and Leeds have made the generous donation of the ticket proceeds, does that mean that the 27th is no longer the deadline?

Not unless you count the old regime's request for £100k to keep the club going. While there were some who were happy to stick with blind faith, the vast majority saw that it would have been cash down the drain so kept their hands in their pockets in case the cash could be used for a better purpose in the future. But hey, let's not allow facts to get in the way of things!

I'm a Bradford fan and I did listen to Wakefield fans rather the the "informed" posters on this board and saved myself a lot of money that WOULD have been wasted if I'd listened to them. £500k is far better in a Supporter's Trust or even your own pocket than paying off Hood and Bennett's "personal" guarantees because it STILL EXISTS.

You tried Wakey fans you really did, but some people are clearly too intelligent to ever be wrong even in the face of a mountain full of facts.

I say again: you never had to set out to raise a fraction of that sum. Indeed, you never had to raise anything at all. So who the hell are you to tell us we should have done something that you have never attempted and have no idea whatsoever of what might have happened? Words come easy; show us your deeds so we know it can be done, eh?

So go on then, since you are clearly more intelligent than the several thousand fans who DID contribute and who DID save the club at the time (it was not Hood who appointed administrators) - tell us precisely how YOU would have organised a supporters' trust to raise £500k in two weeks from a standing start? and how you would have made that money available just after the Easter bank holiday to stave off Administration? Go on...we less intelligent mortals are desperate to learn from someone who clearly has huge experience in this field.

Incidentally, you are talking total bollox about the PGs, because it was only the overdraft that was so secured, and the bank was already reducing it pound for pound as money was paid in regardless. And it was far less than the 500k even before the bank started pulling it in.

Here you go again Wakefield needed 350K for a tax bill but the old BOD asked for 500k to be viable last season, that was in direct response to the new ground going to PI and a payment that the old board would have got at the time of approval not forthcoming. Wakefield had a structured payment with HMRC but HMRC called it in. An escrow account was formed and in the short space of time 50k was raised by fans. Nowhere near enough to save the club at that time. AG took over and the rest is history. If I have got my facts correct you (fans) were asked to raise 500k so th club could go on and admirably you did raise that but becuase of (what it looks like from an outsider) in fighting with the BOD you have gone down the pan and are currently swirling around waiting to go around the bend of oblivion or for the flusher to stop.

Whilst you may have a good knowledge on things you dont always get your facts right

BGs fee must already equal Bateman, Whitehead & Kopczak plus a bit.

This madness must stop soon or there will be no future.

Its all money going out of an already under capitalised game.

No more extensions - let things crystallise.

But the escrow account was set up by the CLUB, if I recall correctly? And the initiative was by the CLUB, right? My point is that all those who are lecturing us about the SUPPORTERS doing all this from scratch have not done that themselves.

And you have made the point too - nowhere near enough to save the club anyway.

As we said at the time, any supporters initiative would have split the donations between club and fans, sown confusion and sent out a message to potential investors that this was a club divided. In the event, Caisley did that anyway, of course, after most of the money had already been pledged.

There is not a cat in hell's chance in my opinion that the supporters collectively, in competition with the club, would have raised more than a fraction of the 500k - over 20% of which did not come from the fans anyway. And without the 500k the club would have been in administration the following week. At least we bought time, and created a fantastic united platform on which to build. Sadly, tragically, the shareholders chose instead to fight and depose each other rather than work together to save the club. They betrayed the fans, and history will damn them for it.

The RFL are between a rock and a hard place here as George Orwell nearly said "All clubs are equal, but some are more equal than others". So their "discretion" mentioned in the rules would probably favour pet expansion clubs, or high profile clubs with a big following. But they have two problems now however, not really having the finances to prop up failing clubs and allegedly several more SL hanging on by their fingertips. Whatever your ine of business if you are undercapitalised you are going to enjoy interesting times.

The true history of this whole sorry saga has still to be written so let's concentrate on what we can do to save league in Bradford rather than argue about whether we were right or wrong to contribute to the appeal.Whether we believe CC scuppered any hope of success or whether PH presented a false prospectus is irrelevant to the here and now.
Everything I've heard and read leads me to believe that the majority of league fans want us to continue. Bad tempered arguments about what happened at Wakefield or other clubs will only alienate people. Perhaps it's a trifle romantic to assert that one of the decisive factors for the RFL Board will be that the broad mass of the league community (and that's the fans/players not the owners/boards ) agree the sanction should be limited to a points deduction.

Just one further point.

[iIf[/i we are to be relegated - does this mean we won't/can't lose points this year? And of course the converse, [iif[/i we get a points deduction does that mean we have been already punished and won't/can't be demoted?

Being punished twice for the same offence does seem a bit harsh - even for us.

I was always very doubtful about The Pledge, believing that it would only delay the inevitable and that it would have been better used to fund a Newco, even one outside SL. In the end I pledged more out of a sense of guilt than logic.

In retrospect I do think the extension of time that it bought has been useful. It did demonstrate the level of support for the club which must have been a good thing in terms of gaining the support of most, if not all, of the RL community.

Perhaps one thing it did that shouldn't be underrated was to restore the bond between the fans and the club. There seemed to be a great deal of bad feeling at the start of the season, disaffection with the players and coaches. People, myself included, seemed to be going to games as much to have a moan as anything else. However the dedication of the players, coaches and staff in recent weeks has been magnificent and there is clearly much greater affection betweeen the fans and the club. We may still go bust but at least we'll go out on a high note!

Well said that man, sums up what most of us feel

I think that's really well put. We'd forgotten what a great club we are and only looking back do you see that we were in a slow death spiral which suddenly got quicker.

I think the RFL has a duty to help member clubs in difficulty but am astonished so little scrutiny has been applied to what amounted to a 700k secret loan the RFL made to the Bulls in November, 3 months after the licensing decision based on the club's financial viability. Where were the RFL accountants then? How were the Bulls ever going to pay that back? Huge questions about the governance both of the club and the game as a whole need to be looked into.

I think we could get both, but its more likely to be one or the other. Exit admin in some sort of positive fashion, get a points deduction. Liquidate, possibly get relegated. The RFL seem to think we can see out the season either way (not sure how?) but if we liquidate, reform immediately, and see out the season like the rfl want then I'd guess we [uwould [/uhave a points deduction for the admin in the season we've completed in, and then we [icould [/iget relegated after the season ends for the liquidation. With our luck would you bet against it?


One other point of interest for us that I picked up from the operational rules was this;

[i"At least one Club that has competed in the Championships during the Licence Period 2012 – 2014 and that meets minimum standards set by the Board will be granted a Super League Licence for 2015 – 2017."[/i

I know this was guarenteed last time, and is still subject to the minimum shifting goalposts, but I must have missed the annoucement for this period. This will effect us either way (asuming we're carring on in some form or other), either we'll still be in SL in 2014 and be one of the teams at risk to be removed for 2015, as at least 1 excisting club could have to make way and we'd be a prime candidate, or if we're put into the championship for 2013, we [imight [/ihave an opportunity to reapply for 2015.

There is nothing to say an existing club [ihas[/i to go down and be replaced though, so it could be an extra club from the Championship + one other, Toulouse maybe?, or a club from a development area( If the RFL are feeling brave!) to have a 16 club SL? I'm far from sure the economics would stack up, but with the RFL it certainly wouldn't come as a shock.

Decisions being made in smoke-filled rooms is no good for Rugby League or any other sport:

1. Bring back one-up one down promotion-relegation from next season - with the rules as to who goes up and down fixed before the first season of promotion/relegation starts. (Don't care what it is e.g. bottom club down / top club in league below up. Grand Final winner from league below up, bottom club down, play-off between bottom club and league below Grand final winner etc).

2. Go into administration - points deduction immediately. Bulls should suffer it now - but RFL wants them to fulfill 2012 fixtures.

3. Go into admin. & re-form with a "Newco" - relegation to bottom division for the next season a la Rangers.

Just keep it fair and simple - so everyone knows where they stand. There has to be an end to the "we'll make it up depending on who we're talking about", mentality.

All fair points but before you make that decision go do a month's work experience at RFL when they're trying to sell tickets to international matches or finals that involve anyone other than Leeds, Wigan, Hull, Bradford, Wire and Saints. Then try running a national grass roots development programme on the income from a semi final when a well funded club sells less than 3000 tickets.

The RFL HAVE to take account of who the club is because game does not have the number of clubs with a support base that it can cast 10,000 fans plus the SKY subscription audience in the Bradford area out of Super League.

You make a good point there actually. When two of the so-called 'big clubs' pull 9000 for the Semi Final with a Wembley Final for the winner, they don't have the luxury of chucking out a club with 10K season ticket holders.

Yes, I know the Scottish Premier have just done something similar, but I suspect it will come back to haunt them. Notice how the Chief Exec of the SFL desperately tried to get clubs NOT to dump Rangers into the bottom tier - because of the financial ramifications for all the rest of the clubs

The points that a huge amount of goodwill that could have been called upon by a rescuing consortium COULD have been available had the Bulls not run the pledge.

What would the reaction be from season ticket holders if ABC decide that all season tickets are worthless and everyone has to pay full price on the gate for the rest of the season?

Yes, the pledge gave a stay of execution and MIGHT have been enough to provide a stop gap, but it's still a very real and unfortunate possibility that the Bulls may cease to exist and the fans have been screwed out of £500k for nothing but false promises.

Wooden Stand wroteicon_biggrin.gifecisions being made in smoke-filled rooms is no good for Rugby League or any other sport:

1. Bring back one-up one down promotion-relegation from next season - with the rules as to who goes up and down fixed before the first season of promotion/relegation starts. (Don't care what it is e.g. bottom club down / top club in league below up. Grand Final winner from league below up, bottom club down, play-off between bottom club and league below Grand final winner etc).

2. Go into administration - points deduction immediately. Bulls should suffer it now - but RFL wants them to fulfill 2012 fixtures.

3. Go into admin. & re-form with a "Newco" - relegation to bottom division for the next season a la Rangers.

Just keep it fair and simple - so everyone knows where they stand. There has to be an end to the "we'll make it up depending on who we're talking about", mentality.




[iAll fair points but before you make that decision go do a month's work experience at RFL when they're trying to sell tickets to international matches or finals that involve anyone other than Leeds, Wigan, Hull, Bradford, Wire and Saints. Then try running a national grass roots development programme on the income from a semi final when a well funded club sells less than 3000 tickets.

The RFL HAVE to take account of who the club is because game does not have the number of clubs with a support base that it can cast 10,000 fans plus the SKY subscription audience in the Bradford area out of Super League.[/i


& go do a month's work experience at a Club outside Super League where there is now nothing to play for!

Just set fair rules and let success determine who goes up and down. Just give it a chance.

Super League can be a great spectacle and even more so if success leads to promotion to it - which then generates true support. Bradford's average attendance was less than 6,000 the year before Super League came in...

Haven't I read somewhere that most of those Season Tickets were at £50 each. If the Bulls management had charged an economic price for them they would not be in this position.

we've never gone as low as £50. Think giants did the £50 ones.