Am I missing something here,,,, are we in financial trouble again

Would we know if we were?

Mmm 1 + 1 = 3

I’m as nervous as anyone regarding the Bulls finances, but having followed the paper trail as far as I know how, I do think there is nothing to see here.

There was talk months ago of Lowe trying to sell his share of the bulls, presumably to finance his retirement following his heart attack. At the time Koukash made a Statement to say that he had been offered the share but wasn’t interested. It was an odd out of the blue statement, but at the time he was undergoing a split of his own so I suppose I can understand him taking the defensive.

It appears that after trying to find another partner Chalmers bought out Lowe himself through one of his companies.

Do I think we should have a keen interest in the bulls ownership and finances? Hell yes! Do I believe that anything of note has happened that causes me concern? Not at all. Following the heart attack Lowe was partner in shares only. Had the not recovered from his illness then who knows who would have gained a 50% stake in the bulls. As it stands it appears that we have one owner, and that he is working tirelessly to make the bulls a self sufficient business.

These are my opinions, and I’m not an expert in such things, but I’m happy that we have a team to support, and an owner who appears to know what he is doing.

This sniping between club owners in the press isn’t very edifying and in my opinion only serves to make people more divided which is the last thing the game needs. I was critical of Chalmers when he took over as he said nothing in the press when many of us had a great deal of questions. Now I think I’d rather see him keep his counsel rather than get into slanging matches with others. The Workington streaming statement was a PR shambles and his columns on the new structure – while meaning well, I think – are not helping the situation. He’s not as smart as he thinks.

As for Hudgell he’s just another tin pot club owner. HKR are hardly the mode business either and are there largely because their owner and others cover the losses – like most RL clubs apart from Leeds. He’s never been a fan of ours and was one of those that voted to deny the Bulls their TV money back in 2012 and instead share it amongst themselves. That move more than anything scuppered the Omar Khan Bulls and led to Administration number 2 and Marc Green coming on the scene. So Hudgell is partly culpable for the situation the Bulls find themselves in. His comments about the opaque goings on that led to Chalmers and Lowe taking over to me seem to gloss over the role he and others had in engineering that.

While the bills are being paid most fans aren’t really that bothered about who the owner is or how much of the club he owns. I’ve no idea how good or bad the finances are. I doubt we’ll find out much either. The next accounts will cover the disastrous 2017 season so we won’t see how steady the ship is now until next year. It’s only when the wheels are coming off do you find out. We ought to find it easier now we’re mainly part time. However the overheads of Odsal and having a full academy, reserves and lots of backroom staff will be bigger than most L1 clubs. I guess we just hope we’re covering the bills by careful wage bill management and increasing sponsorship and crowds. It’ll probably get us back into the championship but longer term I doubt whether Chalmers has the cash to cover the losses that will be made to make an assault on SL. The cynic in me suggests that may be why he’s not cosying up to SL bosses – he can’t afford to run us in that division. Or maybe I should take off the tinfoil hat.

It's interesting when you fully read the article, it kind makes Hudgell look a little silly?

"With a bachelor's in marketing and honours' and master's degrees in finance from Massey, he worked as an associate lecturer at the University of New South Wales.

In business, after giving up his football dream, he spent seven years in Sydney, eventually as a group managing director and CEO of a travel company that boasted 550 staff and an annual revenue of $A280 million. "

Along with being Chairmen of NZRL you could almost accuse Hudgell of first class Trumpery.

I does seem to good to be true and yes you could imagine there is someone bankrolling the club. But how many season tickets were sold? And at what price? They aren't give-away tickets anymore. And how many sold after the announcement of Kear? You could say that the act paid for itself.

He knows what he's doing, I mean we're not nearing 50 in squad numbers yet and I understand, given the recent history, people may question who he's doing it for. But to try paint him as a lost child in a world of grown ups is a bit strange. Then he's got Damian Irvine as a sounding board... he's hardly clueless.

I'd take offense to the insinuation that some of us are unintelligent just because we choose not to interrogate every little action the club does or does not do. And why... because its none of our business.

We are not share holders, nor are we being held against our will in continuing to follow the club. Why should AC have to justify everything?

I don't particularly care where the money is coming from. I pay my money to watch a game of rugby; end of!!!

And I'm sure Mr. Chalmers would love more fans like you. I'm sure Mr. Green would have too.

I'd say the way you are about it is how a lot of fans are. I didn't mean it to sound like I was saying you were thick. But I'd say there's a large amount of fans like you who don't want to know what's going on behind the scenes and just want to turn up, give the club money and watch the game. Those are the fans that keep clubs going a lot of the time. Entirely their choice and if that's what makes them happy, good on em. But it can often be the equivalent of the child sticking his fingers in his ears when his parents were arguing, because if he can't hear them, then everything's fine isn't it?

Well said bullinenemyland
Some one else on the same lines as me... if people want to know where the monies are coming from I have a great idea for you.. JOIN THE BOARD

I don't understand people who believe they have some kind of 'right' to know what is going on in the background.

No business or organisation, operates with full public disclosure of all its dealings via social media, well, apart from the current American government, of course. Somethings need to be kept under wraps for obvious business reasons - not least so competitors don't get hold of the information and use it against us, but also because the club is responsible for a lot of personal information belonging to its employees, who also have a right to privacy.

So answer this, when you order a coffee from a vendor do you ask him to provide an update on how he is supporting his business financially before you agree to buy it?

When you subscribe to Sky/Virgin/Netflix do you ask if they have paid all their taxes correctly and on time?

When you book your well earned holiday, do you check that the cabin crew have all be paid their wages for the month before you buy the plane ticket?

You may say its different but really it is not. Chalmers is running a business first and foremost. Therefore it is entirely up to him, and him alone to decide how that business is run and it is up to you whether to buy the product or go elsewhere.

It's no different to any other business in the UK and i'd guess if you did ask those questions you'd be told where to go.

If you genuinely can't see the difference, I rescind my comment where I wasn't suggesting you were thick.

The companies you list, their customers have no love for those companies. Part of being a regular customer of a sports club is having an affection for it. If you don't have that affection, you're unlikely to be back very often. If the business owner wants to keep all things to himself, it's entirely his choice. He has no obligation to keep people informed. But if he DOES keep people informed and be honest and open, those customers with the love and affection for his club are likely to stick around because they feel the club loves them back. If he doesn't, there's every chance quite a few of them won't bother (and I speak from experience having seen a grand total of two games this year). It's as comparable to a friendship or loving relationship as it is to a business/customer arrangement.

You seem intelligent enough to understand that.

Also think that if those companies were in trouble they wouldn't go around their customers with a bucket asking for contributions.

Well I for one am glad there are at least 3500 - 4000 thickos like me than a clever know all like you, who incidentally has posted a nasty uncalled for comment re a Bulls player in the past.

You'd have to narrow that down a bit, I'm sure I've said highly negative things about numerous players in the last few years because I'm not here to blow smoke up their backsides just because they happen to play for Bradford. I always say what I think, regardless of whether the opinion is going to be popular or not. I'm not all that bothered who your favourite player is, if I think he's crap, I'll say he's crap.

Calling somebody dogsh*t in my book is not highly negative it is highly offensive and something I am sure you would not dare to say to his face. By the way Halafifi is far from my favourite player but I hope I have the good manners and humanity not to describe him or any player I disliked in such insulting terms.

Some people are more sensitive than others. Clearly we're at different extremes on that scale. Because I'm at the side of the scale where I'm not sensitive in the slightest, I don't really care what people think, I'll carry on giving my opinion regardless of whether it makes people laugh, cry or have no reaction whatsoever.

The comment was no reflection on him as a bloke (which I couldn't comment on, never met him, don't have a desire to). It was a comment on his abilities as a Rugby League player, based on every game I'd seen him play at that point (which would have been most, if not all that he played for the Bulls). And with it being based on that, I still say it was an entirely accurate opinion. I'm led to believe he's been better this season, but having not seen him play this year, I couldn't say.

Anyway, that's not what this thread's about so I won't derail it further.

That Chalmers eh? What a *%$£!

What we may have in common is that like you I couldn't give a flying f*ck what people think either. However the difference is I'd happily have the balls to front up and tell someone to their face what my opinion is as I tend to think about what I type rather than interact like a keyboard warrior.

I'd never stoop to calling someone dogsh*t but might call into question their form (have done so many times when chatting to current and former players). I sponsor one of the first team players that has been mentioned in the keep/drop thread and he knows his own ability and potential so he doesn't need unnecessary name calling and neither does Vila.

Anyway back to thread (oh, two things in common now), yes even I as a complete thicko I understand there can be differences between emotional attachment for a sports team and a product. However, this is not always the case either.

Brand identity is everywhere and is a major part of the buyers decision process. I would argue that there are certain people that would have as big an emotional connection with a branded product as they could with a sports team. The biggest example of this is Apple.

Maybe your decision to not attend games this season has been made for a wider range of reasons than you appear to have originally suggested?

You clearly do not feel the same affinity with the club otherwise you would attend more often... although you could argue that you do still hold the same affinity but until the leadership changes its communications you won't part with any more financial support... but if that was the case then surely you'd watch the live stream for free instead... but you can't do that either as otherwise you'd see that Vila hasn't played anything like dogsh*t in the games he's featured???

You are one complex character but maybe i'm just not understanding correctly cos i'm clearly that fooking stoopid!!!

Wow, I didn't realise Rugby League players were such sensitive souls too. Perhaps if they don't like people pointing out that they're rubbish, they maybe chose the wrong vocation? Professional Sportsman does tend to come with people having opinions on if you're any good at your job or not. I assume you're also all over the football forums picking up all those who have been abusive to Raheem Sterling during and after the recent World Cup? Or do you think maybe he's currently holed up somewhere trying to pretend that nobody is talking about him? I think you don't give people enough credit to be honest. I tend to believe that people who choose to play professional sport and are in the limelight know what comes with it and learn quite quickly how to totally ignore most negative and unconstructive comments. I highly doubt any of them care less what I think of their abilities (and rightly so).





I watched part of the Keighley away game on the live stream and found the quality so bad I ended up turning it off. I can't sit and watch the game freezing constantly, and even when it's moving, players so blurry and pixellated that I can't tell who's who and what's happening. And that's with a fibre internet connection in my house. That's not knocking Proper Sport and the people putting out the stream, as I totally understand they can only work with what they have and the service is free, so you "get what you're given" kind of thing. It's a great service IMO. But it's not for me. It's not that I want it in UHD or anything, but it needs to be watchable, and I found it wasn't. Maybe it's changed now, I don't know. But it's not the same as attending anyway. And since I stopped attending due to multiple reasons (owner and price amongst those), I've found other things to do with my weekends that I get more out of. If I didn't care about the club, I wouldn't be here talking about it, but my desire to attend has been nullified by other factors.

So basically regards himself as a supporter, admits he could attend but doesn’t. Watched part of one streaming from ground where basically no facilities , “binned” it and not tuned in again. Deary me.

More or less correct. Some of us choose not to attend for reasons other than "because I love the club and want to support them". Although I tend to regard myself as an ex-supporter because I don't attend any more. That doesn't mean my 30+ years of being a supporter disappear though, and they tend to keep you having an interest and affection for the club you followed for so long. Hence my presence on these forums.

Hamster, i sense u av a lot of scepticism about Charmers. As a fairly new poster rather than trawling thru' a load of old posts and see what uv said about him and new regime cud you please summarise why you don't trust Charmers or like him or why u av suspicions about him. Im not being nosey hun, just interested, and I wont slag you off or call you a troll as u r entitled to ur opinion, as any member and Bulls fan is.

Genuine question Hamster, as you've ever right to not attend but what would entice you back?

I personally think Chalmers is doing a good job. Yes some of his press releases are obviously written from his heart rather than his head (I do understand he needs to stand up to the SL lot as he's been put up as the main man to represent L1, shouldn't get back in his box as Mr Hudgell would prefer)

But when he took over he/we literally had nothing. No kit, no sponsors, no players with around 3 weeks until the season along with a 12 point deduction. Yes there's been cock-ups along the way (the away kit debacle) but having gone through last year, we're in a decent position now.

Top of the league
A good young squad
JOHN KEAR as the coach
Reserves
Academy
Womens Team
A FREE streaming service which lets us watch a game for free if we are unable to attend.
Speaking to some sponsors, they're very happy with the way things are run.

Regarding the price, i do think he's on to a no win situation (those who go will use the prices as a positive, those who don't want a go will use it as a negative) The facts are we've £75k central funding and in L1. We all want financial stability and not to overspend. So if we want all of the above, a good squad with an academy etc, the money has to come from somewhere. I'd personally rather be the most expensive and pay a bit more, if it means we have an academy, JK as coach and a good squad, rather than paying £10 and being the 4th/5th best team in the league.

You look at the players we're rumoured to be signing for next year. Jy Hytchcox, Brad Dwyer, James Laithwaite. They are quality players and i personally would rather pay more to see players like that, rather than pay what everyone else pays, and end up with average players and 20 wingers. If we charge the prices we do but have a 40 man squad with 20 wingers and no SH's like before, i would be aggrieved, but the money is being spent well and i feel we get value for money.

Would you come back to see Dwyer, Laithwaite, Hytchcox play for us in the championship?

I don't disagree with most of what you say to be honest. And I tend to agree that if you want the competitive squad, the fans have to pay for it. We've heard numerous chairmen in the past say the same thing and as much as it can come across as an excuse to charge more money, it's also true. Without a big money backer, there's only one way to earn money to fund a good team and that's the fans. Personally for me though, I wouldn't get a season ticket because I can't guarantee I'll be at every game due to work commitments. I have a disability which although it doesn't qualify me for any special perks like blue badges, it does mean I can't really stand for a full game. That means I either have to pay £23 in advance, or £25 on the day and I just can't justify that sort of money. I'm not saying it's wrong of them to charge that, I'm sure they've done their sums and worked out what the best price is to maximise income. But me personally I find that too expensive so choose not to pay it, especially when I've been putting so much money into the club over a lot of years, it kind of feels like a slap in the face to get relegated and be expected to put even more in than previously.
Genuinely though, if they have done their sums and worked out this is the optimum price to bring in the most money, then I don't want them to lower it. From a business standpoint, it's absolutely the right thing to turn off some fans in order to make the most coin.

I don't know what would bring me back now. I think enough things just built up that I'd had enough and wasn't willing to pay that money any more, but then as I mentioned I've found other things to do with my weekend which I enjoy. So it could be that the damage is irreparable.

The only thing I will disagree with you, and I'll try to answer Belcki's question at the same time, is the chairman. I agree he came into it with having to start almost everything from scratch and that couldn't be easy. I agree he did a very good job of getting all that done, especially when his business partner fell ill and couldn't do much to help. The media releases aren't really the thing that bug me about him, although they undoubtedly don't do him any favours. It's more the early days of lack of communication and secrecy (and indeed this still happens, although not as often) over important issues. It's lies that came out last year that were never clarified (example being the away shirt debacle you mentioned, the club clearly lied one way or the other). It's the employment of people who are utterly inept ("Media Manager" or whatever his title is, being top of the list), who seem to be able to repeatedly do a terrible job of things and continue as normal, even when numerous fans have highlighted it to them as being an embarrassment. So it's not really one thing that puts me off him, it's a number of things combined. Perhaps coupled with the one time I have actually chatted to him face to face, I got the distinct impression I couldn't trust him as far as I could throw him and he was just saying what he thought I wanted to hear.

I would also mention again, nobody outside of the true "insiders" know that the club is doing OK financially. All we know is that there hasn't been any WUPs for 18 months, which admittedly is a big improvement! Until proper books are seen, the idea that the club is being run financially well is just speculation (as indeed is the idea that's it's still in trouble).

I'm not trying to bring everyone down when most fans are positive. I am genuinely happy that a few thousand of our fans are enjoying themselves again and feel like the club is going places. God knows they deserve it after the last few years of nothing but stress. I just don't find myself subscribing to some of those opinions, perhaps because I don't any more experience the euphoria of being there when someone scores or the team wins, who knows? Seriously, I hope I'm wrong about him. I hope he's the saviour and the club get back to Super League and 10,000 fans every week, with no bloody tax problems! I just can't see myself being one of those 10,000 whilst things are like they are, and maybe not even if they changed.

Wow I feel like I've been typing for years...

So, is Chalmers the public face of Marwan Kouka$h??