1. I'm pretty sure you can still get it.
2. Most people prefer a curry, or at least the option of a curry.

In fact, doesn't that sum up one of Bradford's main issues, people moaning about problems that don't exist and/or aren't actually problems?


Not sure I approve of mixed relationships.

Very good that

I initially came to Bradford as I wanted to live in a multi-cultural city, having spent my previous years in a 99% white working-class area. I loved the first 5 or 6 years but am now almost totally disollusioned by the place. I have very few non-white friends, I have joined the white flight north where those I meet are predominantly professional class. I no longer have the time or energy to mix in groups socially where I am likely to meet groups who live different cultures & lifestyles to me. Is this all down to me, is Bradford different (it certainly feels ghetto-ised)?

As the rest of your post illustrates Bradford isn't really "multi-cultural" it's segregated and, to be honest, I think it is worse in that regard now than it was when I was younger.

Apart from a group of white school children shouting abuse from a bus I have never experienced any direct racism from whites to Asians/blacks in the near 17 years since I moved to Bradford. I have been racially abused by Asians a number of times, always by youths including when I had my daughter with me in a pushchair & my partner. I have experienced hundreds of instances of ignorant racist comments by white colleagues & neighbours in general conversation, never when non-whites were present. It usually is related to the myths that Pakistanis (& it is always them - 'the others are alright') get preferential treatment in schools, health, benefits etc. This winter a colleague claimed his road in Wibsey had been gritted for the first time because there are now a number of Asians living on it.

As you know I'm mixed race, we lived in Idle with few problems, apart from a couple of shopkeepers that I can think of my dad was the only dark face in our area, one day that all changed and for some reason we started to get fireworks and dog s**t through the door, had graffiti daubed on the house when we were away on holiday and had the windows put through a couple of times, it lasted for a couple of months then stopped as soon as it started but, if this sort of thing happened when any Asian families moved into a new area, it's easy to see why they might have moved back sharpish to help this segregation on it's way.

I suffered from a little mild bullying at first school for being a "Paki" but got a lot worse when I was working in various factories during summer breaks from Asians because I wasn't Asian enough.

I hadn't noticed - that's how PC I am.

FFS...

There's several areas where it is segregated, areas like Manningham and Lidget Green immediately spring to mind.
However, your next post sums up what I was going to say, you lived in Idle with few problems, and that justifies its a multi-cultural area, as are other districts within Bradford. Wibsey, where I live, despite what tigertot says (which I find unbelievable) was always considered multi-cultural in my eyes, and somewhere where racial tension was at a minimal.

The thing what upsets me is the common racist assosciation of "Pakis" being the root of all muggings, thefts etc within Bradford. These sort of idiotic views only further enhance racism and segregated districts within Bradford. On the flip side, people coming into the country that can't speak English also further enhances segregated communities. I believe anyone coming into the country should have a grasp of English to interact within the community, does that viewpoint make me racist?

Really? It's a shade darker than Buttershaw maybe, but it's still whiter than white.

That would be ideal, but as a large number of Bradford's Asians, as I understand it, come from peasant areas of Pakistan, predominantly Mirpur, it is unrealistic. What is essential is access to English lessons when they arrive, whether this should be compulsory & how it would be funded is open to discussion. My colleague with the gritted road in WIbsey thinks they should all speak English when they arrive, surprisingly.
It doesn't make you racist, what I find depressing is the reluctance of people to discuss the issues in a proper manner.

I am proud to be from Bradford and have many Asian friends and think the "white trash" element of the city don't help matters.

However,

It's not just the white element that cause the problems. There are groups of Asian boys (I can't call them men after what happened to me last night), that think they own the city and are owed something by society.

Last night I was driving across the city to Forster square train station with my wife and two girls of 3 years and 10 months old. The incident in question occurred between the cineworld site and Tescos towards Canal road.

I was in the left hand lane all along and had no opportunity to "cut-up" anyone whilst driving when a couple of young boys in a Subaru Impreza hurtled up behind us. I kept drving along just keeping an eye on what they were doing and they screeched up along side us and started papping the horn and gesturing to me. I just ignored them (I wouldn't of done had I been on my own) and they then worded to me that they would "effin" kill me and then "f%*k" my wife and daughter whilst pointing at them.

I stayed pretty calm as I didn't want to get into anything with the kids being in the car. I have lived in Bradford (as has my wife) for all of our 31 years and I have never experienced anything like this in all my time here.

My wife was so upset that she is now talking of emigrating - I've told her that you can't let people like that win and would she have said the same if they were white - to which she said YES, Bradford, in fact this country is dead.

The city is in a complete mess and there are too many "Asian only" and "White only" areas. This city is absolutely knackered and is not going to get any better. The development of the city centre is a must to generate local jobs for all people, as is the OSV. The city needs to show that it is re-building for the future and these two projects are key to assist in this.

I know that this was a single incident - but who in there right mind would act like that to a couple with a young family.

They'll get there comeuppance I'm sure as they'll select the wrong person at some time and get what's coming to them.

I thought of this article immediately after I'd had chance to calm down and thought I should vent my spleen on the subject.

Horrible behaviour, but s are s.



I do wonder why it is that so many young men, white and asian, feel they have nothing invested in society and so the best way to carry on is as you have described. I suspect that being illiterate and innumerate is probably the thing that makes them decide that their only way to achieve any feeling of self-worth is to take advantage of other people's respect for the basic rules of human decency.

Yeah, that's awful, but the colour of these t0ssers skin or the race is irrelevent really. They are just t0ssers and unfortunately there is a lot of them out there, mainly young "men", but all colours. It's not a Bradford-specific problem, its everywhere. There is these people who think they can do what they like, to whoever they like. And they do seem to get away with it. There is a general lack of respect throughout society these days. A lack of respect for each other as humans. Horrible.

This is far from an isolated incident. It happens all the time but most people don't report it. More to the point, it is not a new thing - it has been happening for years.
My mate used to live up Whetley Lane until recently with his wife, who is Indian. They recieved terrible racist abuse and the sort of harrasment described in the post. They went to the police. The police advice? 'move house'.

Nightjack and Inspector Gadget offer some insight on this.

I'm not sure we can class one mixed family, as that is what it was, can be used as an example of an area being multi-cultural, if there had been. It's hard to use my experience as any kind of evidence and justification anyway as we lived as "English" a lifestyle as any other family in the area.

My mum works in an inner-city primary school and has done for almost 20 years now, in her opinion the segregation is getting worse, the intake at her school is now pretty much 100% of Pakistani descent, with the odd Eastern European who doesn't last very long, and the numbers who speak some English on entering the school get fewer and fewer every year. If anything the "community" as their self-styled "leaders" like to call them are becoming more and more isolated.

I cycled to Bradford along Mannigham Lane nearly every work day for 16 years. I had several incidents of racial abuse & a few of things thrown at me from cars & footpath. All by Asian kids. But by far the most worrying aspect is the 'macho' behaviour of Asian youths in cars; I know it is a problem among most young men, but the extent of it, & resultant danger, is far worse in Bradford than anywhere else I have encountered. The fast car does seem to be a vehicle (!) for young Asian men in Bradford to express their confidence/independence/anger/whatever.

I can promise you having lived in Birmingham, London (Battersea) and Nottingham that this is not unique to Bradford and not unique to Asian lads. It's also not a new development in youth culture - bikes, scooters and cars have lways performed roughly the same role, cars are just cheaper now.

Personally I think there’s just a general social malaise across Britain today. It’s the way that people respond to it that is different in Bradford. People see trouble, see Asians, put 2 and 2 together, get 5, assume that Asians are bad and so vent their frustration and anger at this scapegoat. Go to somewhere like Hull and the same problems are apparent but without an ethnic split for people to focus their anger on.

You're correct in what you say, but even if English lessons were available (which they are actually) getting people to attend is a problem.

The way many Asian, predominanlty Muslim, communities and households are structured doesn't allow the freedom to the females that we would accept as a norm.

You're not likely to see droves of Pakistani mums trotting off to evening classes.

Of course, these mums are bringing up the kids, who as a result of their mothers lack of English literacy, end up entering school with an appalling grasp of English. I've seen this first at my kids school.

So, these kids are on the back foot straight away. Many can be sorted, particularly in a school like ours go to, because its a decent mix, ant there's a good chance of pulling them around, but I can't say the same for predominantly Asian schools.

My mother is an immigrant. The first thing she did was learn English. But she was allowed and encouraged to.

Which is why I questionned whether it would need to be compulsory.

Personally I think they should be. Free lessons are available (I helped deliver some a couple of years ago) and while the recent immigrants from Eastern Europe seem to be keen to take advantage of these the "Pakistani community" seem unwilling.

My dad came over in the early days of the mass immigration from Pakistan and, along with most of his peers, learnt the language - however the families of the initial wave started arriving and once the numbers started to build I guess it no longer became essential to do so, as there were plenty of other people around who you could speak urdu to.

I think aj also makes a valid point about the role and status of women.

No government will ever make it compulsory for people to take English lessons because certain factions would kick up a fuss, I've been called a racist myself for saying I believe it should be compulsory, but without it any efforts to completely integrate our communities will be undermimed.

I agree that it's a problem across the board whether it's white or Asian young men. I live a long way from Bradford in a very white area, but we have the same problems, particularly on warm summer nights with lads racing each other and tearing around to impress girlfriends. There is a subtle difference however and that is the car fulfils a specific role for the Asian lads, whilst a lot of the white lads will hang out in pubs etc (with all the resultant problems) Asian lads have little in the way of 'free' social space - that is outside of observation by family, biradari networks etc. The car is therefore [ithe[/i social space, a place to meet, hang out, listen to music and escape.

What worries me is that a lot of this bravado and threatening behaviour from white and Asian young men does get backed up by actual violence. I admit to being a pain in the ar$e when i was younger but generally had enough investment in my future not to push things too far. A lot of what i see now indicates people have no sense of their own possibilities or idea that there are things to look forward to that shouldn't be risked by getting sent down. If you have no sense of respect and possibility in your own life it's unlikely that you'll give a toss about anyone else. Consequently you end up with this arrogant, agressive, macho nonsense that is all about the moment and what a big man they are, which of course is exactly what they're not. Young people are always volatile, but they need a sense of purpose and investment in their lives, if that's missing you've got problems.

I come from a society where women of my mum's age knew their role & status. Consequently she has spent 60 years serving my dad's increasing needs, to the complete detriment of her liberty. I had this discussion with my partner last night, she thinks my mum should have buggered off years ago, I wish she had but understand why she hasn't. This situation is, hopefully, uncommon now in traditional UK society, probably largely due to access to the media.
I believe that UK Pakistani families bring in uneducated peasant women because it gives control over these women, & probably deliberately exclude them from education. As I have posted on here before, my partner did some equal opportunities training at Bradford Uni, the head of the section had recently been on a city visit to Mirpur. Her opinion was that there is more progress being made with female emancipation in Pakistan than in Bradford.