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| Quote ="Bulls4Champs"What is a pre pack? And would the RFL have to buy us a new stadia if they sold Odsal? Why would that go out of the window, couldn't it be re-negotiated before any administration to still stand?'"
Pre-pack administration. Owner/s (it usually is, although can be managers) of a business put it into administration, with a deal already done to buy the assets off the appointed administrator (with whom they have usually been working beforehand) pretty well overnight. Before anyone else has a chance to do anything much. Usual result is that they get the assets cheap free of any liabilities, while the creditors usually get little or anything. Big saving on administration costs, and least disruption to operations, are cited as reasons.
Personally, I detest the bloody things and would cheerfully outlaw them, tbh.
It would seem the writer of the piece shares my assumption as to what Caisley would probably do.
RFL's lease with the Bulls requires that they provide a replacement stadium should they sell or otherwise move the Bulls out of Odsal. That agreement is with Bradford Bulls Holdings Ltd, which company would cease to exist following administration. Newco would be a separate legal entity, and - as I have warned on here for ages - the RFL would not be bound by any previous contract with the Bulls. It could enter into a new contract with Newco if it so chose - but would be under no obligation to. For example, it could invite Wakey to move in...
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| But realistically thats a fairly easy obstacle to overcome isnt it. Just ask prior to going into administration, if the RFL are happy to sign a similar lease with the new company with similar safeguards (there is no real reason you would expect they wouldnt be happy with doing so) and everything is hunky dory. Or if the RFL arent happy then you dont go into administration or move to VP and the RFL are left with an expensive asset which is pretty much useless to them
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| Quote ="Paul124897"Not technically true. Thomas Cook are relatively safe despite the ongoing media circus going on around them.'"
Correct. A lot of it is media hysteria.
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| Tony is Silsdenbull btw, the squad thread guy
Surely even CC can see that if he were to put the club into administration, after all we as the fans (and the RL community in general) have done to keep it from precisely such a fate, then it would make him pretty much the most detested man in the whole of RL? Or does he not care about that?
You have to remember that however sincere that email might be, it's still only Andrew's side of the story and not completely factual.
Let's just wait and see what happens, we've done our part now.
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| If the pledge money pays the urgent debts, what other significant existing debts are there? What would be gained by Administration?
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| The other thing that people keen for admin are overlooking us that any new Phoenix company would be under no obligation to honour season tickets. Maybe not a massive issue for bulk of supporters but would hit those who bought into longterm ticket offers last year hard. And I'd suggest most of those would be hardcore supporters. Think a cornerstone of caisleys business plan is a immediate cash injection from people buying half season tickets or paying on gate for the rest off the year.
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| Quote ="Cibaman"If the pledge money pays the urgent debts, what other significant existing debts are there? What would be gained by Administration?'"
In financial terms? Release from obligations for the future - e.g. the liability to repay the council the Odsal settlement on a sliding scale up to 2019; most of the image rights tax. The big VAT bill due end of this month; the April PAYE due latest 22/5, and the Class 1A NIC bill due 7/7 (could be big); player contracts for players you no longer want (subject to what the RFL might rule); any other contingent liabilities from the past that have not yet crystalised; liability to repay sponsors if any circumstances in the agreements are triggered. And, of course, the multi-year season tickets (even if they honoured the current year ones).
Bet that lot tots up top a fair bit, quite apart from normal trade creditors (such as they are, given the club's credit rating will be the wrong side of zero right now).
On top of that, and just as importantly, Caisley gets to dump all the other shareholders, so he and his cabal have complete control of Newco. Not much chance of meaningful supporter representation then?
The downside for Caisley is if he does do that, and does not compensate those fans who have lost out, he is likely to become the most loathed and despised man in Yorkshire. Even HE cannot be so obsessed as to risk that?
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| The other thing would be the tie to odsal. Sure I can think of a couple of people with a reason to see us more elsewhere.
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| Quote ="mat"Think a cornerstone of caisleys business plan is a immediate cash injection from people buying half season tickets or paying on gate for the rest off the year.'"
I guess that can only be conjecture, and I really can't see him thinking that, surely? Maybe if he said would honour the season tickets of those who had paid a pledge it could soften the blow for some, but IMO that approach would be commercial suicide.
If nevertheless such an event WAS to come to pass, I can assure you he would not receive a single penny form me.
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| And, don't forget, this rumour is another thing to undermine the pledge and collecting the monies in. Co-incidence? If it was to be deliberate, how would fans feel about being used as cannon-fodder? And if it is co-incidence, its another piece of very unfortunate timing.
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| Quote ="Nothus"Tony is Silsdenbull btw, the squad thread guy
Surely even CC can see that if he were to put the club into administration, after all we as the fans (and the RL community in general) have done to keep it from precisely such a fate, then it would make him pretty much the most detested man in the whole of RL? Or does he not care about that?
You have to remember that however sincere that email might be, it's still only Andrew's side of the story and not completely factual.
Let's just wait and see what happens, we've done our part now.'"
Thats why i was confused, easily done early doors on a friday evening
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| Like most on here I'm not the greatest Caisley fan. Is it guess work that if he gets control Admin is his plan.
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| Quote ="Thackley Bulls"Like most on here I'm not the greatest Caisley fan. Is it guess work that if he gets control Admin is his plan.'"
It can only be that, other than for those in the know in his inner circle. Bennett clearly thinks so from his letter (taking it at face value). From discussions with them, I have every reason to believe that the BoD will be much better placed than most to form an objective opinion.
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| If they use admin for the debts if other options are available its the last time I'm helping the BoD for numerous reasons.
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| Quote ="Adeybull"It can only be that, other than for those in the know in his inner circle. Bennett clearly thinks so from his letter (taking it at face value). From discussions with them, I have every reason to believe that the BoD will be much better placed than most to form an objective opinion.'"
Well they would say that anyone in there position would.
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| This may be a stupid question but I'll ask it anyway...
Doesn't administration mean a points deduction, undoing all the good work on the field this year? If this is the case, surely this would mean no play offs again this year, a reason stated by Mr Hood as something that hasn't helped financially.
I'm feeling increasingly uneasy at the thought of Caisley returning, and also that it seems inevitable.
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| Quote ="redeverready"Well they would say that anyone in there position would.'"
As always, though, it depends on whether it is just opinion or is backed up by specifics.
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| Quote ="PieBull"This may be a stupid question but I'll ask it anyway...
Doesn't administration mean a points deduction, undoing all the good work on the field this year? If this is the case, surely this would mean no play offs again this year, a reason stated by Mr Hood as something that hasn't helped financially.
I'm feeling increasingly uneasy at the thought of Caisley returning, and also that it seems inevitable.'"
Correct.
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| Nobody has gone back to the statement by Caisley in the T&A, and the shareholders' EGM that was going to be called. Presumably it has been called,as I see no reason to suppose it was just so much bollox, and if it is, and if Caisley and his allies have the majority vote, then isn't it the case that they can force the board out and replace it by themselves, and then go into admin or do anything else they wanted to?
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| Considering the Fans and wider RL community pledged to prevent administration happening, it would be a bold/crass move to do that as the consequences could be irrepairable keep the Club going in whatever form.
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| This is a clever letter from Bennett because without us seeing the books and limited info we're given nobody knows whether the business is totally insolvent as a result of the liabilities Adey mentions.
He states that the business was in a right mess and they've performed miracles to keep it going. I suspect they've hovered close to, or just over the line of insolvency for a long time and the combination of factors has pulled their plug. In this way CC gets the blame for taking the club into administration when in actual fact it's the only option. Let's face it, Ryan Duckett has been having 'confidential conversations' for three weeks and not a single investor/new sponsor has even been rumoured.
The point I'm making here is that administration may be the correct option in the circumstances. Adey makes a good point about creditors being shafted but this has to be weighed against the employees, many low paid, who will be sacked in the various business plans dealing with huge debt, the massive negative impact on the local economy of the club going under and the huge overall loss to the state in future tax and NI contributions.
The suggestion is that adminstraion is a tactical choice when there's every chance it's the only way to stop the club folding completely. This would be bad for Bennett because he'll get nothing but he's wrong to suggest CC will be the sole shareholder. Why would the other shareholders support a takeover to see themselves get nothing? It doesn't make sense.
When Wakey went into admin I think Glover picked up the local creditors. IF CC and co took the club into apre-pack admin, honoured the season ticket holders, protected the people at the club, picked up all small creditors, and kept the playing roster going forward I'd accept that.
I've seen Bradford get a total nappy full from central gov down the years as long as the club goes forward HMRC can suck on it.
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| ........Leaving HMRC to reduce tax credits for young families and the low paid and hit pensioners in the pocket.
And before I'm hit with screams of the Bulls not paying up hasn't caused the current economic mess the country is in, IMO companies not meeting their liabilities just makes the man in the street an even easier target to be taxed at source to meet these shortfalls from businesses with a "suck on it" attitude.
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| Quote ="HLL1969"........Leaving HMRC to reduce tax credits for young families and the low paid and hit pensioners in the pocket.
And before I'm hit with screams of the Bulls not paying up hasn't caused the current economic mess the country is in, IMO companies not meeting their liabilities just makes the man in the street an even easier target to be taxed at source to meet these shortfalls from businesses with a "suck on it" attitude.'"
HMRC don't reduce tax credits for anyone or hit pensioners in the pocket - the government did that.
If it was my choice we'd have played great rugby for years, have sponsors tripping over themselves to give us money and not be looking down the barrel of a liquidators gun. I'd take admin before no club, or a club sacking half the staff and limping into an abyss. I'm not saying it's a great choice but I'd live with it. Duckett is in todays paper having more conversations and asking for more pledges. Maybe it's time we appreciated where the club clearly is.
If you want to discuss what we think government spending priorities should be I'd skip invading Iran.
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| Last time I looked HMRC was a govt department.
But yes we all want the same thing for the club - survival - I never questioned that. My concern is that admin may be seen as the golden goose without a thought for micro and macro consequences.
If after all this effort we still end up shafting the tax payer it will be a sad, sad day.
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| Quote ="HLL1969"........Leaving HMRC to reduce tax credits for young families and the low paid and hit pensioners in the pocket.
And before I'm hit with screams of the Bulls not paying up hasn't caused the current economic mess the country is in, IMO companies not meeting their liabilities just makes the man in the street an even easier target to be taxed at source to meet these shortfalls from businesses with a "suck on it" attitude.'"
Liquidating a business is not a way to avoid personal debt, directors can still, in some circumstances be held liable for the state of the business and are certainly still liable for any personal guarantees that they may have made against business loans etc.
There is a mistaken belief amongst the general population that folding a business and walking away from the mess left behind is an easy option for directors when in reality it isn't and there is a mistaken belief that its in some way an easy solution to HMRC debt, a too easy solution - what many don't realise is that a Ltd company is a legal entity in itself, its the company that owes the debt, the directors have a responsibility to ensure that the business is run in a proper way with proper accounting methods, but ultimately unless they have given personal guarantees, its the legal entity that is the Ltd company that owes the debt, not the directors unless they can be proved to have done something illegal (hardly ever the case).
And you can't have it both ways - you can't have a country built on entrepreneurs, you can't have a taxation system that allows legal entities to be formed with limited liability (thats what the Limited in Ltd Company means) as long as that legal entity can be taxed AS WELL as the directors being personally taxed, you can't have that system if you then expect the Limited Liability status to include Complete Liability from the directors - you'd immediately kill off nearly every business in the country.
If you have ever run a business that operates business-to-business yourself then you will have at some point lost money when a client goes into administration, its part and parcel of the risk you take when offering credit to businesses and if you can't afford to take that risk then you shouldn't be doing it.
Yours,
"Been there, done that, liquidated"
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