Surely the extra income would come from people not being put off when it rains, more young people coming owing to a better atmosphere. Most of the kids in the South stand at Leeds don't appear to watch the game but they have a great time singing and pay their entry like everyone else.

We've gone to great trouble and I suspect no little expense to re-engage with families and one good downpour could literally p**s on the whole parade. Mum won't bring kids to catch pneumonia.

I'm not blaming Peter Hood as he could have done little else but champion the OSV but maybe we need to look at (cheap) realistic options.

I would think most of those affected by that who have little kids would either already pay to go in the family stand or not go anyway because it's still going to be cold.

Eventually, it probably would pay for itself with that, but it would take a long long long time.

Oh, isn't it just so predictable, that when things seem to be going so well, we get a punch in the gut over the stadium



Seriously, this can hardly be unexpected can it? When the Council has to make compulsory redundancies across the provision of its services, it would hardly seem likely - removing our most biased of hats - that it is reasonable to spend on something that, at the end of the day, is something of a luxury. Unless there's a sugar daddy on the horizon, and if there is then he's doing a great job of staying off the radar - we look to be well and truly stuck.

I suspect that the next round franchise 'feedback' will be next key 'driver'. Assuming we are safe with our next franchise (I believe that we are OK with our other criteria), then we'll need to take careful note of our feedback. If there is talk of 'need to replace ground with more modern facility' or similar, then we can't just mooch around for two or three years doing nothing. Or, even worse, place our faith is yet another 'pie in the sky' scheme.

It would seem the only two viable options between now and 2015, would be either to somehow scrape together the money for a modest upgrade of Odsal (taking care to do just enough to meet minimum franchise qualifications) or to move to Valley Parade once and for all.

Personally, I'm OK with the latter, but I'm probably in the minority.

When I used to travel to all away grounds I always thought Odsal to be one of the better grounds, & that was before some of the more recent developments. Now, though, all of the poor grounds have been replaced or are looking fairly likely, except Wakey who I fear are doomed. So the bar has obviously been raised but I still think Odsal is acceptable, however the maintenacne costs must be a nightmare. I've said all along that OSV will not happen, about a year ago there was a programme put forward for the development that was impossible to achieve. The club were naive or very poorly advised if they ever thought it would happen to those timescales. I have worked on numerous construction projects when you get the feel early on that you are wasting time & fees continuing, but there are usually some important people who have invested a lot of effort & reputation in the job & bury their heads in the sand. I feel there is an element of this in OSV.
Although a roof over the pop side will make no difference to me attending games at Odsal, I guess the view is it would attract the floating punter who clubs are chasing. Estimates of several million do seem excessive to me. I quoted the total cost of Leigh's new stadium (c£17m IIRC) on a previous thread, we are only talking a roof here. I guess the best bet for the Bulls would be to get into bed with someone like Caddick to build one for them.

But Leigh was on a level, prepared site - and not having to be built up the side of a steep bank over an existing concrete terrace, with a cinder underfill, and needing to be at least twice as high as a result. I think that was one of the main reasons why the Odsal crater would have had to be filled in with a million tons or more of hardcore so there was a level site to build on? That said, I guess you save the costs of building the concrete ramped stand...?

I appreciate Odsal is not the easiest of grounds topographically, however construction companies are used to building incredibly complex structures in the middle of city centres surrounded by living businesses & thousands of workers & shoppers. Odsal would be vacated for the duration of the build, obviously the off-season so no loss of income. Any cantilevered construction would have to be piled anyway therefore the poor sub-soil is relatively of little additional cost I would think. Given the number of consultants working on OSV, several who we work with, I would be astounded if the Bulls have not got a reasonably accurate estimate just for a new roof. The devil is always in the detail. There will never be a better time to get competitive costs for construction works, between 30-50% less than 2 or 3 years ago (when Leigh was built).

...and bloody great holes too...

There are a few hundred piles unused in the ground there. If you could come up with an easy system of extracting them you would be a rich man.

Unlikely.

Since if I could, I would be utilising most of them to jam up the respective 'arrises of the various muppets who allowed that situation to develop...

Valley Parade will be the death of the club.

TBH I don't think the chances of the OSV are any worse (or better) than they have ever been, I don't think the "cuts" affect it a great deal. The big question is and always has been whether there is a real desire on the part of the local authority to push it through, that is what has been sorely lacking in Bradford for many decades and if the current or recent councils had really wanted things to happen then they could have made them happen much quicker. It was and remains at least "possible" as opposed to all the previous "pie in the sky" schemes but was and remains unlikely to progress for the foreseeable. By which I mean REAL progress towards picks and shovels, not six-monthly talking shops.

I remember clearly reading that the big issue with a cantilever on the popular terrace is that Odsal is built on a tip and this would make constructing anything modern ruinously expensive, which is why the cheaper option, apparently, was to fill in the bowl and build on top. One of the biggest shames of the plan was that we would forever lose that magnificent and awe-inspiring Odsal bowl, but as the bean-counters of the OSV plans have decreed that - even if we had the money in place to build it tomorrow - we can't afford to build around the edges, but must fill it in for cost reasons, then there's your answer, the cost of supporting a cantilever stand over the terrace makes it not feasible. Not impossible, if you have enough money you can build anything anywhere - just financially not feasible.

Building a shed roof with supports, a la Coral stand, would just be embarrassing. Thank god there's zero chance of it happening.

It may end up our only option. Odsal in it's present state isn't fit for purpose, that's what the chairman says and he's right.

The club will find it increasingly difficult if it stays in an undeveloped Odsal. It's massive financial millstone as it is and will only cost more and more eventually dragging it under.

As has been said above the Council have never had the will to do anything with it and that means it'll never get re-developed.

I predict we'll be at VP within 5 years.

One of the things I don't understand is the need to fill in the bowl. You have got to have terracing. If the bowl is filled you then need to build new concrete terraces. Unless I am missing something.

The whole site is apparently highly unstable because it is an old tip. Hence (as FA too recalls) why it is apparently not financially practicable to anchor a decent cantilever structure. You need a solid hardcore base, which the filled-in bowl (as PH explained at the last FF) would then provide.

Then of course you would not need to build anything like such high terraces, because your new stadium would have a lower capacity BUT would have terracing (whether covered in seast or not) on all sides. And of course you can put all sorts of useful things under or abutting the concrete trerracing for only modest extra cost, like food outlets, bars, bogs, offices, corporate facilities changing rooms, massage parlours (for Tigertot), baby changing facilities (for Angela powers), creche (for Gledhill)...all of which you would otherwise have to build separately or use what is there now like the far-from-ideal Coral Stand.

I just think that the same could happen with us moving to Valley Parade as the crowds will drop off significantly (history repeating itself again).

Just make sure I have a good view of the pitch.

I still find it difficult to understand why it isn't cheaper to build a simple cantilever over what is there already. Sinking piles 50m into the ground is not unusual. IIRC Trafford Centre is built off landfill. The vital corporate facilities are usually at the back of the stand to give clear views of the pitch, these could be formed at the back of the stand/concourse level. I am so intrigued I will discuss the options with our structural engineering consultants.

Dont worry everyone, in 3 years when i come to power ill build us a nice 50k stadium, ill also say odsal is a home so ill claim expences on it, i will also buy the club and give all my fellow Bradfordians free season tickets, just you wait.

If you run for PM, you have my vote mate

Hood's always said Plans B, C and D are in place...

What was your Crowds like when you went down to VP mate?
If I remember rightly, it wasn't as bad as people made out?

It's a real shame that it sounds like the OSV isn't going to happen but if people are honest with themselves it's been a long long way off for years!
My Granddad sadly passed away 11 years ago, Bradford Northern was his team and he loved the walk from Clayton up to Odsal, even in those years there was talks about the OSV being made a reality.

VP is a nice Ground, it's just a shame about the area. If only you could pick the Ground up and plonk it somewhere else in Bradford!

Crowds by historic standards plummeted towards the end at VP. Was not helped by what became a mass boycott by many away fans, not least from Leeds.

Why was that mate, don't remember this?

Went to the Games at VP quite enjoyed it actually

Various reasons/theories were advanced. In fact, the OVERALL stats

1996 10,346
1997 15,159
1998 13,022
1999 13,212
2000 14,520
2001 13,000
2002 13,912
2003 14,939
2004 13,495
2005 12,786
2006 14,406
2007 12,083

don't really bear this out, strangely enough. I think it was more the trend towards the end of the 2002 that became increasingly apparent.

the season that did the real damage was 2004 though. The club won everything going in 2003, and they budgetted on increased crowds as a result for 2004. in fact crowds fell sharply, something that caused the previous chairman to have a real nasty go at the fans about in his annual report. he had a very good point, although he also maybe failed to appreciate some of the reasons why the crowd levels were not maintained - for some of which he should have looked close to home.

The boycotts were to do with the stewarding at VP. I remember more boycotts by Saints fans than Leeds though. Promises of at least, if not actual boycotts.