Quote ="Bull Mania" You mention the policies. No one thinks more money for NHS, schools, nationalising the railways, more police is a bad thing. The problem Labour have is their ideas of how to pay for all of it. They just seem to be the party/politics of envy. I.E Hate the rich. Taxing/hating the rich whatever you want to call it, won't bring any where near enough money to pay for all the above. Even corporation Tax, just because you increase it doesn't mean it will bring more money as it says in this article. The Tories cut it, yet it brought in more hard cash. www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39869118 '" The “politics of envy” line is always rolled out when someone suggests that the current situation is unfair. Fact of the matter is that the gap between rich and poor is growing. I’d say people should pay their fair share. I don’t think that’s the case at the moment. Quote ="Bull Mania" I think people forget just how crappy it was for people in the jobs market just before the Tories got in 2010. The jobs market was awful. Whatever you think about the Tories, while they've been in charge, employment has gone up. Whether that's down to them or not is opinion. But people just don't trust Labour to get their sums right, and with something as unpredictable as corporation tax, people don't want their jobs being risked if it doesn't bring in enough money to pay for their shopping list, or if companies decide to move elsewhere or let people go due to the tax increase.'" The reason the jobs market was bad before 2010 was down to the economic crash. Ironically brought about by policies that let financial markets have more freedom (started by Thatcher and carried on by Blair and Brown and supported by the conservatives like Cameron and Osborne). Labour had to bail out the banks in 2008. Hence the massive debt. There was no other option. Since 2010 borrowing has actually gone up. I’d say the conservatives have a totally undeserved reputation for looking after the economy. If Brexit turns out bad they could have caused the worst economic disaster to affect the UK in nearly 100 years. A lot of pressure is on them to do a good deal.

Quote ="Bull Mania" You mention the policies. No one thinks more money for NHS, schools, nationalising the railways, more police is a bad thing. The problem Labour have is their ideas of how to pay for all of it. They just seem to be the party/politics of envy. I.E Hate the rich. Taxing/hating the rich whatever you want to call it, won't bring any where near enough money to pay for all the above. Even corporation Tax, just because you increase it doesn't mean it will bring more money as it says in this article. The Tories cut it, yet it brought in more hard cash. www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39869118 '" The “politics of envy” line is always rolled out when someone suggests that the current situation is unfair. Fact of the matter is that the gap between rich and poor is growing. I’d say people should pay their fair share. I don’t think that’s the case at the moment. Quote ="Bull Mania" I think people forget just how crappy it was for people in the jobs market just before the Tories got in 2010. The jobs market was awful. Whatever you think about the Tories, while they've been in charge, employment has gone up. Whether that's down to them or not is opinion. But people just don't trust Labour to get their sums right, and with something as unpredictable as corporation tax, people don't want their jobs being risked if it doesn't bring in enough money to pay for their shopping list, or if companies decide to move elsewhere or let people go due to the tax increase.'" The reason the jobs market was bad before 2010 was down to the economic crash. Ironically brought about by policies that let financial markets have more freedom (started by Thatcher and carried on by Blair and Brown and supported by the conservatives like Cameron and Osborne). Labour had to bail out the banks in 2008. Hence the massive debt. There was no other option. Since 2010 borrowing has actually gone up. I’d say the conservatives have a totally undeserved reputation for looking after the economy. If Brexit turns out bad they could have caused the worst economic disaster to affect the UK in nearly 100 years. A lot of pressure is on them to do a good deal.

We will not know for several parliaments whether a deal is good or bad. It will be dressed up in jingoistic terms by xenophobic small island Tories & their sycophantic toadies in the press. Not until the memoirs start coming out will the truth be told.

I think we'll know whether it's good or not pretty quickly based on the performance of the economy. If we're plunged into recession they'll never live it down. If it's boom times it'll be I told you so.

The biggest snow job that the Tories pull is to make everyone believe that if they vote Tory then they ARE Tory and as such will benefit from them. In fact the only people that benefit will have several millions in the bank. The CPS provided the best argument for not voting Tory after today's ruling regarding funding irregularities. If your on the inside they will look after you, if not it costs a six figure donation to join the club.

Any recession will be the fault of those pesky forriners not brave Teresa.

I am a fan of what can be referred to as 'good capitalism', i.e. productive, value add activity that rewards genuine creativity and hard work. May and her party's politics reward rent seeking and abuse of market power, not those who drive genuine economic activity. Much as I hate them, I would at least understand why people voted conservative if their brand matched their rhetoric or their actual policies. But they are jingoistic, entitled, and appeal to the very worst of 'British values'.

I'm not overly enthused with the other options though, and I'm sick of hearing Corbynistas whinging about media bias and how awful the Tory spin machine is. It is HIS JOB to deal with that and if he cannot he is unfit for purpose. He is as complicit as any Tory in the destruction that will be lavished on the UK/Great Britain/England by another five years of Conservative government if he fails to deal appropriately with reality. Sod it - I'm still voting Labour, but my concern will be primarily on whether I get my bonus this year because the wider social context is just broken.

The Labour chance was in the last General Election when the Tories stock was far lower than it is today but they chose the wrong Milliband (if "choice" is the right term) as Red Ed the Tory pretty much fooled nobody.

It seems to me that to try an address this and appeal to the traditional Labour voters that they have turned the clock back four decades to a political dinosaur that perhaps appeals to older Labour voter but is completely out of touch with modern society.

The fact that he and his buddy McDonnell are IRA sympathisers does not help either.

As one who has quite an interest in the politics of North Korea, this is an utterly absurd and crass comment that you really should be ashamed of.

This is a country where people are being starved to death whilst a chosen few live in multi-million dollar mansions drinking the best (imported) foods and drinking the finest of drink.

A country where people (and their families) are thrown into the Gulags for saying one wrong word about the "Dear Leader." A country where people are executed for the slightest of insubordination. A country where people make soup out of Tree Bark as they cannot afford to eat.

This is a country with televisions pre-tuned to one Brainwashing tv channel, made by the state to train the people into believing the lies and nonsense they spout, spending billions on assembling the largest (by percentage of population) army in the world and developing nuclear weapons whilst the vast majority of its people are denied basic things like a transport infrastructure and electricity.

A country who will imprison or execute all the family and friends of anyone who successfully defects from it.

You may not like the Tories but the comparisons are utterly ridiculous. In fact, were it be the way that you portray it then the likelihood is that, by now, you would have been shoot by firing squad for speaking out against the regime in the above post.

Have a word with yourself.

I see the Labour manifesto has been leaked. Having had a read there's not a lot I have a problem with. A lot of it makes sense. Shame it leaked out and the media is concentrating on that.

Rather than obsessing about the leak they should use this as an opportunity to talk about the content.

Thanks for that Andrew.

Sorry you lost me there!

Quote ="Bullseye"icon_confused.gif Sorry you lost me there!'" Andrew Gwynne was on the telly this morning saying just that. www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politic ... out-labour

Quote ="Bullseye"icon_confused.gif Sorry you lost me there!'" Andrew Gwynne was on the telly this morning saying just that. www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politic ... out-labour

Well he's right. When stuff like this happens you have to just get on with it.

In many ways it's not bad thing since they can get further publicity when the final agreed version comes out.

Pleased to see that re-nationalising the railways is in there. The current set up is an absolute joke and much worse than British Rail ever was.

I think you slightly miss the point, Eddie.

There is no direct comparison to be made between May and kim, it's simply that he is the major (I know there are others) current, well known, dangerous dictator; everyone's bête noir if you will. So anyone who shows narcissistic tendencies, dictatorial traits and has numerous soundbites on tap May be lumped in with him ( did you see what I did there).



I once voted for a Tory on the local council, because he was a good Councillor but I'll never vote for a Tory government. This working class voter knows full well the Cons have no concern for our best interests (whatever condescending phraseology they come up with; JAMS, Jesus wept) and Corbyn won't even oppose the current government, so it's the liberals for me as the best bet to keep the Tory out and maybe put the brake on the lunacy of leaving the EU.

So, the debate I was aiming for was about [url=http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/uk-falls-down-world-press-freedom-rankings-thanks-to-snoopers-charter-espionage-act-and-section-40/free speech[/url, [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/12/21/theresa-mays-snoopers-charter-dealt-major-setback-eu-court-rules/Privacy[/url, [url=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-denies-called-election-crush-10253025plan to crush opposition denied?!?[/url, [url=http://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/bid-to-protect-workers-rights-blocked-due-to-tory-mps-filibustering-on-love-of-radio-for-four-hours/story-30056541-detail/story.htmlrefusing to debate protecting workers rights[/url

I expressed it as any weakening of those positions is a slip of a few percentage points towards a dictatorship by comparing May to a current dictator.

What I got instead was the standard ME intentionally misrepresented proposition where he sets up an argument by himself which he can defeat. He then defeats himself by arguing the opposite point, quite successfully.

And I'm not going to have a word with myself, because then I would be you...

Straw Man??

Adey alert.

Either that or one of his bitches.

However, resorting to articles in The Mirror and that Taj Mahal of the printed press, The Grimsby Telegraph shows a certain desperation TBH. I am sure we can all find our own slant in a paper of our choice to back up an argument.

I never understood "Straw Man" back in the glory days of full on FA/Adey/FA arguing. And I still don't.

But glad it's back. It's like a return to glory days. Just like a vote for Labour.

Nor do I. It was pretty much copyright Adeybull though.

Might have given himself up here.

I've just googled straw man. Interesting.
Also known as an Aunt Sally.

It's a shameless overdose of populist rhetoric. It's like Santa's wish list according to an unnamed senior Labour politician. Illogically costed and unaffordable fantasy politics from a bunch of insidious and incompetent Luddites.

The thought of Corbyn and his unbelievably shamateurish team running this country is truly scary. The Tories are equally appalling but they are the lesser of 2 evils at the moment. Labour under Corbyn has repeatedly squandered a gift-wrapped opportunity to hold this government to account and that represents a major betrayal of the British electorate.

Spot on. In fact, I'm nicking that. Thanks!

Other Internet search engines are available. I asked Bing. Still no further forward. It was all a load of indecipherable gobbledegook.

Much like a Jeremy Corbyn speech in all fairness.

There have been several posts in this thread that mention the gap widening between rich and poor in our society. I don't disagree with this assertion.

However it needs qualification. There needs to be a distinction and acknowledgement of increased numbers of genuine deserving poor and those persistent and undeserving poor. The latter choose to live by the "society owes me a living mantra" and freeload off society by choice, contributing nothing and squandering every opportunity put their way by intent and consistently skewed poor judgement. Is it fair to keep on feeding this mindset?

Similarly, some inherited wealth among the rich is ill-deserved if it is squandered. Conversely there are many rich people who are self made, creative, hardworking and deserving of their rewards. Is it unfair to make them overpay for this success to pay for the undeserving poor?

Deflection,smokescreen & illogical conclusions?

Eddie alert.

Once again, no contribution of any moral or intellectual substance to the attempt to discuss privacy & freedom of the press. Just a vague and pitiable attempt at an insult. So pity it is then. I am sorry for you ME and I hope this shallow persona you put out here isn't totally representative.

[url=https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/30/kim-jong-may-awkward-and-incredulous-as-journalist-asks-questionSupreme leader May[/url

I found it amusing, especially the last paragraph about Lynton Crosby. It is interesting that the "strong & stable" soundbite has been less prominent recently. The Tory polling data must be showing some negatives building up with it, although it was obviously polling well to start with.