Waste of time.

We all agree with you on here,obviously

Did Carter say anything like if we are allowed to sign any players he will spit his dummy out and walk away

My thoughts. Green seemed defensive. Carter came across very well and can't really disagree with Carter said. Seems very level headed.
The sky money is a separate issue. End of day he is right, it is unfair if we went into admin and didnt get punished.

Just watched Boots N All,did I miss where Carter thanked the Bulls for donating 100 grand to them.Me thinks Carter chooses to ignore that fact

The Bulls have every right to appeal if it's in the rules. Every other side -like Green said- signed up to the same rules at the start of the season. Therefore, every team has to abide by the appeals panel's decision. They'll either find in our favour or not in our favour. It really is as simple as that.

Carter just looks unprofessional crying like a spoilt brat. But let's get this straight he's put his own house up for capital to keep wakefield going. We all know now you should live within your means wakefield are clearly not . They've been in admin twice already. Unprofessional in the extreme to gamble like that. Cut your cloth carter before crying to the media. He'll reap what he's sowing alright

We had a fairly well balanced viewpoint from Marc Green, who as you said was a bit on the defensive side which is quite understandable in the circumstances.

Carter on the other hand, didn't do his silly campaign against us any favours, for which I personally am quite happy about.
For example the amount they owed HMRC was in excess of £300k, and I assume the other £250k was to stave of the 9 CCJs, plus I understand Sir Rodney Walker loaned them cash.

Reported in a Wakefield paper last August>
Wakefield Trinity Wildcats were half-an-hour from becoming a Championship One club according to chairman Michael Carter.
In an exclusive interview with the Wakefield Express this week, Carter explains how close Trinity came to going into administration and falling out of Super League.
Looking back on the moment in August when he and director Chris Brereton took over at the club, Carter said: “We were half-an-hour from going into administration. Me and Chris were sat there at the point where we had to sign up to get a loan from the RFL and we both thought: ‘Are we going to do this or not?’ We believed what we could do at the club and we believed that we could take the loan and pay it back over the next 18 months but it was that close.

And previous report from Andrew Glover.
The Wildcats were faced with a winding-up petition from HM Revenue and Customs over an unpaid tax bill of more than £300,000 and their financial difficulties resurfaced recently when Glover revealed the club had been the subject of nine county court judgments.
Unquote:

Of course the putting up the Houses is a bit of a Red Herring, how is that anything to do with our appeal? When Carter has stated that they knew it could be paid off in 18 months. From the money coming into the club?

ie Full Sky money of £1.2 million per year, an extra £100k fromthe share out of Bulls sky package, plus of course the additional £300k from the pre Sky payment this year and a further £100k in July.
Grand total £1.7m !

Mr Carter I am not impressed with your assessment????

Carter put his house up not to keep us going but against not being able to fulfil his obligations to the RFL.
As for living within you means, don't think you can preach.
Carter said that they spend half of the 300,000 extra money on repaying the loan to the RFL, I would say that's pretty responsible.
The Bulls have right to appeal but they are in a no lose situation regarding the points deduction, it can't be increased only reduced.

Wakefield weren't living within their means then you just said it. You reap what you sow.

Cut your cloth accordingly and stop looking for credit it's what you are supposed to do.



If your supporters club are going to write ill informed letters about the rules being followed you can't then whinge about the rules being followed. Trying to attempt to sway the independent panel's decision could backfire.

I just don't see how he can keep a straight face when the grounds of your appeal is force majeure!

surely the only way you can justify getting points back is by paying some of the creditors. If that was the basis of your appeal, then I don't think there could be any complaint about you getting 2 back

Depends what the circumstances of the losses were. Which is why it's going to appeal. Which, as a member club/chairman, Wakey/Mr carter have already signed up to abide by their decision.

The cost of the appeal is met by the party making the appeal, so it is incorrect to say there is no downside.

Sorry didn't realise you've been involved with the management of the bulls and know everything that went on.

So what part of the sorry mess was unforseen and unavoidable?

I guess it was forseen and unavoidable you Wakie lot would be on here talking crap

Dunno. But Mr Green thinks it was unavoidable, and he wasn't the owner at the time, although as the debenture holder, he put them into administration. So he must have demonstrable concerns which he feels will hold up at a tribunal.

And as members of SL, all 14 clubs are contractually bound to abide by the appeal decision. So thats ok as well.

We have been in admin and ended up selling some of our players.
To ensure we didn't go into admin last year, MC did cut our cloth accordingly.
As for calling Wake unprofessional, I think everyone and his dog knows we have been run badly for ages.
Bradford now have been in admin twice in about 3 years and the only player you lost first time round was Kopczak and you moaned like mad at that.
Didn't see any major cost cutting after this and this is probably why you are now where you are.
The letter that was wrote maybe ill informed but isn't this why MC asked for clarification from the RFL on what the consequences of administration are?
To get a Super League licence your finances had to be vetted by the RFL, yet 3 or 4 months into the first season you went into admin.
Marc Green can put his case forward for the Bulls and whatever the outcome of the decision is, the RFL needs to have in place in black and white, the penalties for entering admin and not play guessing games.

Tricky0.2309 I asked the same (good) question when the appeal was announced, or rather that the RFL agreed that there was a basis for an appeal to go ahead. From that wording it would seem to me that the RFL check that there are grounds for an appeal and that its not frivolous. However as you point out it is not obvious what the force majeur was. the only thing I can think of is OK not fufilling his obligations under the deal struck to transfer ownership, under which the trio presumably would have taken on responsibility for payments, including to HMRC. They did make their position clear, no ownership no responsibility and had indeed already resigned once over the issue, for an agreement to then be brokered by the RFL. All conjecture, anybody else any idea of what the force majeur or uncontrollable external event was?

No one is preaching, maybe just pointing out that it's best if people in glass houses don't throw stones.

I think you'll find that between our 2 admins we lost Kopczak, Whitehead, Bateman, Winterstein, L'estrange, Langley, Platt and Mick Potter, all of whom were probably on decent wages. Plus there's all the backroom staff that got made redundant. Then since the 2nd admin we've lost Sammut, Scrutton and Carvel. Whether we wanted those people to leave or not, I would hardly say that costs have not been cut. The main reason that we ended up where we are now is because we had £1.2m taken off us and shared between the other SL clubs.

If Carter wants a level playing field for going into administration, and I believe he mentioned deducting 10 points, then Wakefield need to be retrospectively deducted a further 6 points and fined £1.2m for their last admin. That might make it fair.

Although Wakefield and now more financialy stable I don't think they are particularly rich so if I was Carter I would keep my mouth shut. You never know, they may just find themselves in financial dificulties again sometime.

I think people do get into a bit of a lather about 'admin' and 'winding up', etc, as though this was some awful cardinal sin. This procedure is neither illegal nor uncommon and, in fact, the capitalist system couldn't function without this re-assigning of assets and 'recycling' of failed companies.

As I understood the situation, the big thing everyone was totally against was the scenario where a failing company is taken into admin [iby the owners[/i, who arrange a pre-pack, and return -emboldened and debt free, to continue the ownership and running of the company under a different name.

I assume the 'force majeure', may well a fair way of looking a the Bulls situation, in that it wasn't the directors of the company who instigated the procedure in a naked move to gain profit, but it was 'forced' by a creditor. The fact that it was the same creditor who took over the club muddies the waters slightly but the principle remains intact, imo.

Kopczak used the get out clause like Carvell.
Whitehead was sold after extending his contract.
A transfer fee was turned down for Bateman.
As for the rest, they were shed at the start of the second admin.
So in theory, the first time you went into admin you lost two players and carried on regardless.
I don't know the in's and out's of the £1.2m but it has been mentioned that OK agreed to this so the Bulls could retain their SL place.
What MC is saying, is that the rules need to be in black and white, not a massive grey area, left open to individual interpretation, a bit like what refs do.

Which bit of, "all these players left our wages bill", are you having trouble with?

So you don't know the ins and outs of the £1.2m, well, when you go into admin the next time, I can tell you there will be letters being written about 'level playing fields' if you aren't made very much more aware of the problem.

The bit where they have been made out to be off the wage bill first time around.
If we do go into admin again hopefully there will be a blueprint for all clubs to refer to and understand the consequences that go with it..

Bulliac there was no prepack and Ok is clearly not in control, its Marc Green. and yet 6 points have been deducted. The RFL seem keen to draw as hard a line as possible, otherwise any excuse could be used for going into admin with no penalty. As FA would say, the way to sort out HMRC was to pay them, that was within the clubs control. Imo it needs a genuine outside of the clubs control reason for the appeal.

The fact remains that they have gone, flown the coop, no longer here, are no longer on the books. When is irrelevant.

I doubt there will be any 'blueprints', the RFL seem to like adding 'nice little surprises'..I guess our 'little surprise', the £1.2m, is now part of the scheduled bit..

The 'when' is very relevant, as the Bulls line up for the first fixture of 2013 against us doesn't look to have been ravaged by player sales and cost cutting.
A least we can agree that there will be no concrete guidelines from the RFL.
Just more rumour and speculation to keep the forums going!