As per, you make a salient and highly valid point.

What is clear, is the debt level isn't what was expected or in the format it was expected when the initial review was carried out, and that is the real shame. I certainly wouldn't plough money into any business with such ridiculous monthly costs against negligible (and reducing) revenue streams particularly when they are highly likely to reduce further fairly quickly.

The past and how etc is at this stage, slightly immaterial, since brick bats won't solve this. I have my theories on how this may play out and I hope they're proven correct. By the same token, it may very well go the opposite way and the club is no longer. The level of historic debt and HMRC's extremely demanding nature at present, make this one hell of a difficult situation I would imagine.

Adey, zero need for the personal attack, it's futile and somewhat childish given the situation. I'm not concerned as to your perception on my credibility (there is no such thing on a faceless Internet forum), which you pre-determined because I had the audacity to contradict you with fact, especially re the ST vat.

I thoroughly appreciate your passion for the club, but your view of me is absolutely irrelevant given the facts I present. As for the manner, again, that's your jaundiced perception. I may find you patronising and sanctimonious, but pointing that out solves nothing. The caveat being, let's keep it relevant.

Sorry, but totally wrong there.

On Good Friday, the club owed Jan, Feb and March PAYE. Three months. And the liability for April PAYE would arise in a week's time.

This Tuesday, the club owed May and June PAYE. Two months. The liability for July PAYE will arise a fortnight tomorrow.

On Good Friday, the club owed £250k VAT on the Odsal Lease, plus the normal VAT for the first quarter. Due end April. And a bit of VAT for April.

This Tuesday, the club still owed £250k VAT on the OIdsal Lease - but 5 months instalment payments had been agreed in the interim, I suspect after settling the PAYE arrears - and the normal VAT for 2 3/4 of the second quarter.

On both dates, the club owed £250k for tax on image rights going back many years, with payments agreed by three annual instalments.

On both dates, there would appear to have been an outstanding contention with HMRC regarding VAT on season tickets, the exposure for which has been reported as c. £200k.

The o/s tax position is actually somewhat better now than it was. And players have been paid, games have been played and time bought in the interim.

As far as I can tell, the club's financial position is no worse, and should actually be a better, than it was on Good Friday (as a result of the pledge). The administrator has said there is no prepack in place - which surprised and shocked me - so what a bloody good job we did NOT call in the administrators after Easter! At least there has been three months for people to see what they could do.

RFL are indicating its a possibility www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/18609190

RFL are indicating its a possibility www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/18609190

So what did our £400k+ actually pay off then? Just the 4 months' PAYE that was o/s as at Good Friday?
Or did we clear the bank o/d too, on which the previous directors had personal guarantees?

That assumes a new club would be formed immediately out of the ashes doesn't it?

Seems unlikely.

Quote ="Bullpower2012"RFL are indicating its a possibility www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/18609190'" "...under new ownership such as [ia supporters trust[/i." Really?

Quote ="Bullpower2012"RFL are indicating its a possibility www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/18609190'" "...under new ownership such as [ia supporters trust[/i." Really?

No chance. Even with months to prepare I would say it was unlikely.

Quite. I think unlikely is being very generous. Even Bullbuilder is only run by a handful of dedicated volunteers giving what spare time they have, club ownership is several factors more involved. Just can't see it.

I said yesterday:

The Jan and Feb - and then March - PAYE.

Some of the April wages.

Plugging the gap left by the pulled overdraft.

Remember: the club was paying money into the bank account, but the bank would not let the club make payments from it. Therefore the overdraft reduced automatically.

The more I think about it, the more I suspect that the bank became aware that HMRC were probably looking to wind the club up for unpaid PAYE in Mid-March and that may have been the real trigger for them finally pulling the plug.

How would the RFL (or anyone else for that matter) expect a group of fans to run the club until the end of the year. Absolute bonkers.

Let's all give up our jobs, find loads of cash from nowhere to pay the players until the end of the year and while we're at it, lets pick the team by a public vote each week.

Suggest to me the RFL might be considering supporting a temporary vehicle for enabling that to happen? Would make massive sense for them if they did, when you consider the alternative.

Anything to avoid messing up the league standings for everyone else and highlighting how ridiculous the whole magic weekend has become (or always was). Then they'll just crucify us once the season is over.

Oh, and lets hold the world for a few months while these supermen put together a prospectus, in accordance with all the relevant financial legislation, to go out and try and raise money from the public. I'm sure the administrator will wait a few months, and find some way of paying the bills in the meantime?

Its all a lot different to how it was in Trevor's day. The numbers are much bigger, and the legal requirements are far more onerous.

And that is even if we had seen hordes of people demanding this be done, and volunteering their services for a protracted period.

As you say Adey, this idea is a non starter.

I am not sure you can dismiss any potential source of capital in such an offhand fashion - or are you still hoping vainly for the elusive suger daddy?

If anything rises from the ashes of the current club it is likely to have to rely much more on fans giving time and volunteering to help - as there simply wont to be the funds for full time employees so is it unreasonable to offer fans a small stake in the club?

Its not the concept as such. Just the idea that a Supporters Trust could emerge and seemlessly takeover in mid season that's nonsense.

Not suggesting that - but if something does emerge from the current situation its a way of bringing some more capital into Newco and broadening the fans involvement. I think you could also make the point that after what the fans have done in the last few months then Newco could both acknowlege this contribution and at the same time strengthen the core fan bases engagement with the club by offering some shares - not as investments but more recognition of their contribution

Fair enough but obviously that's a non starter for this current season as I said earlier.

To run it as a supporters trust of whatever flavour, you would need a set of people who were rich in spare time, rich in business experience, short of a life, and able and willing to sacrifice 40-50 hours a week permanently, for nothing, to run what is a multi-million pound turnover business.

A bit like the Board we just sacked, then.

I would imagine the odds of finding such a cadre of volunteers able and willing to set this up and run it are probably as long, if not longer, than the odds of finding a sugar daddy.

I also fail to see how a bunch of well meaning amateurs, even if by some miracle they were to step forward, would be able to solve the funding shortfall which we are given to understand is maybe £1m - £2m a year. Or maybe they would coincidentally be the world's financial geniuses too? Anyway, to me, some sort of volunteers supporters trust trying to run an operation like this is just pie in the sky, it can't happen.

I await some bright spark coming on here to point out that FC Barcelona are a Supporters Trust

I think most of us will be more than happy just to see the team complete the rest of this season!

But I think going forward we would all like a club with the firmest foundations possible and equally - assuming we are still in the higher leagues professional management - neither a supporters trust or interferring shareholders

Barcelona a supporters trust?

Sure! You mean the one that was based on an initial investment of €50 million?

Yes, that's what we should do. I wonder if anyone can see any catch?



I have to say that I have nothing but admiration for the people who implemented the transformation of Barcelona, although mentioning them in the same breath as us is a bit rich. Mind you, as at 2010 they had a net debt of €442 million, currently 58% of the club's net worth, so maybe there's something in it, seeing as we only owe an odd million or so.

But if you are interested (I was at the time) [url=http://openmultimedia.ie.edu/openproducts/fcbarcelona_i/fcbarcelona_i/pdf/dg1_481.pdfhere's [/urlan article about how they did it. Basically, some very clever and hyper-wealthy people, operating as a cabal of sugar daddies, I suppose would be one way of describing it. in a snapshot, a number of high-powered executives took up to a year out from their companies to set it up, and as the year went on, they gradually hired a skilled (and extremely expensive!!) management team.

Good luck in finding the Bradford equivalent.



PS a quick Google suggests Barca are in financial strife, trying to implement a 4 year "austerity" programme of cuts, and drive down a management wage bill of pushing €30 million (excluding bonuses).

But they do have a bloody good team.

1 short awnser NO, the club need 200k every month just to pay the staff, and there is the ground rent, that's before the unpaid tax. The current management at the club have a lot to awnser for and if the true extent of the finances were known when they asked for the fans pledge they would not have got the money then, they were dishonest with the fans, not disclosing the true state the club was in and although I have the greatest respect for the players and more so the fans they have only got themselves to blame, but I do the RFL knew about the finances that is why the bought the ground and they should accountable as well.....

if the bulls reform as a new name do you think we could be called the bradford northern bulls?

Exactly

Also "Super League bosses will allow Bradford Bulls to finish the season as a new company even if the club goes into liquidation in the coming weeks. "

How can they make that statement, when we dont even know if there will be a Newco, and the Newco will also need to fund losses for the next 12 months plus until the wage bill is cut.