But as a club that has bottomed out we are drawing more in the Championship than Wakefield and Salford are in SL. I would also think we are now more financially stable than both of those. Having said that, however lopsided the field, P&R was decided on the actual pitch which is as it should be.

2011 (19k+) and 2012 (20k+).

2012 was a particular type of "let's get everyone out and try save the club" occasion. 2011 wasn't.

When Huddersfield finished top in 2013 the only equivalent home fixture where we didn't pull more speccies than them was Wigan. Heads were well and truly down by then and it was one of our worst seasons in terms of the narrative of the club, and few at that time thought we could sink lower. We out drew them in many fixtures last year, and have had larger crowds then them on a couple of occasions this year.

Weren't those also the years of £60 season tickets? Those of us who were on the terraces fully remember the announcements of 10k + crowds when if you actually counted bodies in the stadium, it would have been a lot less. Which is why that cheap season ticket idea failed, the club clearly thought that all those people would turn up every week and spend the money they saved on cheap tickets on things like shirts, food and drink. But as the actual crowds remained at low levels, that extra income never materialised.

It is stupid to say we have been in terminal decline, given the worst we have been is runners up in Championship with the best crowds in the division. There are a lot of teams who would like to be equally terminally declined. Our undisputed decline has, if anything only served to underline the potential, given the crowds - paying full SL whack with no discounts - that we have been able to maintain in 2015.


Which clubs? Name them! No club, ever, has been where we were in SL so good luck with that.


What are you on about? I am not "wishing" in any shape or form. It's nothing to do with what I wish". I am making observations as I see it, and they seem pretty much factual to me. Given the money a successful Bulls is worth to the game, I'd say that our health is probably THE most important issue for the RFL today. The halcyon days of 20K crowds and Bullmania in front of the adoring Sky cameras are something I suspect the RFL would like back. But, I suppose I could be wrong. Maybe Wakefield will suit them just as well.

They were. I'm well aware of the story, "those of us who were on the terraces" includes me. But these are the Leeds games we're talking about. They really were big crowds. The only ST holders who weren't there were the ones desperate to reserve their spot for the Wakefield and Salford teams of those years whilst preferring to eschew the Leeds game.

Smallest listed attendance in 2011 was 12k, so assume that's roughly how many ST holders there were. The difference between that figure and the announced attendance is roughly the same as last year's SL average crowd. It would be easy to say they were all Leeds fans too, but they don't go to the similarly distant Huddersfield to see a better game in those numbers.

By all means explain it away, but there really aren't many teams capable of doing that. Crowds are massively down, crowds can be massively up when the situation demands it. Both sides of this story are correct, it is one side saying the other is nonsense that I have issue with.

You can't live in the past!
It is depressing seeing where we are at, at present.

We need investment to get out of this hole.

You would have thought we may have had maybe a quality signing by now to try and push the season ticket sales along.

We need a scrum half, a couple of bad ass props and possibly a strong 2nd hooker to get near promotion next year.

It makes me sick using Leigh as an example but stupid Derek is putting his money where his mouth is with regards to 2016.

We can have the good times back and make a big return on investment but the capital has to be put in, in the first place.

Leigh are playing a very dangerous game with their current model, so I wouldn't use them as a viable comparison.
Not running a reserves side and hinging your promotional hopes on players you might not even be able to fit under the cap are not exactly the sort of decisions I would want my club to be making.

People tend to forget we've already signed another half for next year in Thomas. All articles re him have named him as a half despite his best position seeming to be fullback. I think we'll struggle to find a scrum half who's a genuine improvement on the players already at the club and who we can accommodate under the cap. I feel we can take it as a given that there wont be rush for anyone to take sjelka of our hands. Think we'll see a couple of props coming in (Clarke from Donny seems likely and maybe matt ryan as a prop/2nd row if we can free a quota spot). Cant really see another hooker inbound given we released Conroy. Suspect Halafihi will get more gametime off the bench next year, albeit it was bizarre he didn't get the bench spot in MPG ahead of Baille.

I wonder if we fail to find a scrum half if we'll look at a) slimming Addy down in off season to play there or b) move Mullaney there permanently with Thomas/Clare taking over at FB.

10 years ago, Bradford won it's last Grand Final. Since then, the club has gone backwards at an alarming rate. Year on year, we've finished further and futher down the league ladder. Crowds have fallen at the same rate, despite some artifical inflation at certain points. I remember when the cheap season tickets were first announced and a bit of information came out of the club that there had never been more than around 4k season tickets sold every year, even during the glory years. So, rather than it being the case that our current fan base shows potential, it in fact shows the hardcore of Bradford support that has been there through most of SL. As for how long those fans will stay and continue to pay SL prices for Championship rugby is hard to guess.

You keep talking about a sucessful Bulls, but that is not even on the horizon. Even if we'd won the MPG and were planning for a season in SL, there's very little chance that the current side would not find itself in the middle 8's next year and if they survived for a 2nd SL season they'd probably be still in that middle 8 group for a number of seasons as there is a gap between each of the groups of 8 that will take some major miracle working to overcome.

The trouble is, we're between a rock and a hard place. The double bust of recent years has left a lot of floating fans soured on the sport and the club and a lot of the remaining fans are unwilling to shell out on a season ticket for, what is in a lot of eyes, a 23 round pre-season.

23 match pre-season, well yeah, sums up life in the championship, I guess.

I suspect it does put many off. It doesn't dim the [ipotential[/i though, and that is what the Bulls provide - all the big crowds of days gone by are still, [ipotentially[/i, there for the future. Bradford is a big city and is in the game's heartland, I agree with FA, the [ipotential[/i of the Bulls is enormous and a resurgent Bulls would be an tremendous boost to super League and to the game - I also can't see any other club in the nether regions with anything even approaching that same potential.

I don't doubt we'll be back, though not sure when to be honest. Maybe when the rules are next changed ? Maybe we'll get lucky before then - the club certainly have to play up the chances, in public, at least, it would be commercial suicide not to. One thing is for sure - it won't be any easier next or future seasons.

But this is just drunken pub talk, with respect. What on earth is the point of demanding "capital being put in"? There are vociferous numpties in all clubs from the soccer Premiership down to lower leagues and they all incessantly demand "investment" by which they mean they demand whoever owns the club just spends all their assets in buying buying buying buying, until there's nothing left. And yes we all know we'd be better if we filled the key positions with world class players but we have about as much chance of buying the world's leading players as I have of landing on Pluto. Maybe more.

If you can find Roman Abramovich or a Korean magnate this may work but we are in Bradford and you are wasting your time as IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN. You need to get the shoite about "investment" out of your head. You are dreaming.

No it isn't, the shelf-life is highly limited. We will not survive long in the Championship. I can already feel the vaseline at the edge of the slippery slope under my toes. It can work for small town clubs. It can't work for us.


Beg to differ, we have had a successful season last in, oh, when was it Ah yes - 2015.


As I keep saying, in my own way

what I am saying is unless a few more quality players are brought in next year there is no chance..

thats not ed up pub talk thats standing on the terraces watching drivel like Featherstone at home.

we need to get 20% more out of players isn't going to cut it if the players aren't good enough in the first place.

buy a few better players you will sell a few more tickets, turn some performances out you will get better gates, get back in super League you can expect a lot more turn over its not drivel its business.

So now you have dropped your suggestion that from somewhere we magic up "capital", and now you're saying we need to sign "a few more quality players". Because this will sell "a few more tickets". You haven't really thought the maths through, have you?

Eh?

So the same person that recently said that he would "not accept, accepting failure" is now trying to tell people that 2015 was a success????

In what way exactly?

Seriously FA, have you any idea how much you insult the intelligence of your fellow Bradford fans when you come out with this claptrap? Given that you want them to accept this view is ridiculous.

How was 2015 a success exactly? If 2015 was a "success" then we are saying that the brief for the season was less than what we achieved. Despite none of us knowing exactly what the expectations were, it is safe to say that finishing second in a two team league then failing in the play-offs was a bit less than what the club were looking for.

Success? Lay off the bevvy FA.

It is my considered opinion that if we'd had a coach with a Scooby Doo we'd be up.

Can we at least look on the bright side for a minute. We didn't have a spare 150 grand to spend on Joe Westerman

You seemingly cannot grasp that "successful" is a relative term. By any reasonable measure, 2015 was a successful season, despite teh crushing disappointment of narrowly falling at the last hurdle.


I simply state my view, which is fair do's, even raving nincompoops like you have just the same right. "Want"? Rubbish! I say my piece, people can ignore it/take it/leave it, I really don't care, it's just a random discussion ffs


So many ways. Some random examples: crowds; table position; financial stability; best player retention; commercial progress; making the MPG. But of course, you know this, so it's weird you ask.


Eh?

That is gibberish. If it hides a lucid point, then no doubt you will clarify.


Finishing second, while extremely creditable for a scratch squad, which rarely hit its straps for 80 minutes, was not relevant unless it had prevented us making the MPG but it didn't.

Don't be daft, we all know exactly what the expectations were. To qualify for the MPG.
We all know what our ambition was: to win it. My expectation was that we would lose it. (In the end, exceptional circumstances conspired to present us with a great opportunity, that we blew, and which may not arise again, but that is another story).

In your way, you are trying to say that your sole definition of "success" was promotion or bust. Anything less by your definition is "failure". Most rational people can understand that whilst we had a successful season, it could have been more successful. If you are having trouble with "success" as a relative concept, then I suggest you read up on the things that happened in our last few seasons, and try to work out why this season was a million times more successful than those. The penny may drop, you never know.

If only this were true. If anyone dares to disagree with you they get the usual argument, dissected bit by bit (as above) whilst you try to discredit them. If anyone dares to disagree with you they are a sitting duck, as people well know.



The point I was making (hey! I can dissect a post too) is that the only way the season can be considered a "success" is if we over-achieved on expectation. We didn't.



And we didn't. Therefore it was not a success.

Sugar-coat it all you like FA, last seasons "successful season" has now left us in a position where support is dwindling further, the gap between ourselves and promotion is bigger and our squad is likely to be weaker next season whilst we are still coached by a guy that most people think is incapable of the job and appears unwilling to learn from his mistakes.

Was last season a successful one?

Mmm, I'd give qualified yes to that. I mean, whilst not remembering any hangovers from wild celebrations, we did negotiate a full season without going bust, and in fact we seem to have done well with financial backing. In general the club appears to be on a sounder financial footing than for some time. All pretty successful, I'd say.

On-field, we dropped divisions and entered our new place in life with a lot of new faces, leaving us with a fairly unsettled squad with a lot of the unknown about it. Our biggest competitors were also fully pro and had a decent quality, and maybe more importantly, settled team, so I'd have taken second position before the season started. I know it was [ionly[/i the second division but you can only beat what is in front of you, so again it's successfully negotiated, for me.

We did get second, and also managed a way through the eights and got into the final play-off game - which, imo, was something we hoped for, but which we were not favourites for. At the start of the season only the super optimistic would have expected a win in that game though, and Wakey, with all their off-field shenanigans tried hard to give us a chance, but at the final hurdle we failed to grasp it. So success tinged with disappointment.

My hope for next year is that everyone, including the coach, learns the lessons from last season. That would be another success!

Success is indeed 'relative'. That is relative to the context of the competition. Not replacing a pathetic Wakefield team in SL has to be the first measure of success/failure.

Very entertaining but you're trying to sell a bucket with hole in it on the grounds that it's lighter to carry.

Your post suggests that we [iought[/i to have beaten Wakefield and not to have done so means we failed. Surely, that can only be the case if the means by which we would be replacing them in the higher tier were fair and equitable, when in truth, they were demonstrably not so?

I would say that we did exceed expectations. At the start of the season I wouldn't have thought we'd be favourites to beat Leigh on their own ground to make the MPG, but that's exactly what we did. At the start of the season I wouldn't have thought there was any chance of thrashing a SL team in the playoffs, but we did. We put the millionaires of Salford to the sword.

You keep repeating "it was not a success" but omit that this is because the definition of "success" that you are using is a weird one, where only "promotion to SL" can be success, and anything else is failure.

I think the measure of a successful season is what I and others have explained, and clearly we did have one. Equally if you take the view that not being promoted means our season was a failure, then by your peculiar definition, you are right too, at least in your own head.



What a breathtaking non sequitur! Last season was what it was, and can be judged (must be judged) once it finished. Things that may or may not happen in the future will not retrospectively alter a single thing that we did or that happened in season 2015. It is what it was, and forever will be. Like the Norwegian Blue, it is finished.

None of the things you predict have either happened yet, but if they do, it won't retrospectively make us less successful than we were. and if they don't, it won't make us more successful than we were.

Nobody says Lowes is the world's perfect coach, but overall and with qualifications, think he did very well, and indeed achieved the main "must-do" - getting us to the MPG.

Whatever mistakes he (undoubtedly) made, and whatever failings he (undoubtedly) may have, he proved himself the best in the Championship, in his rookie season. That doesn't qualify (to a reasonable person) as being "incapable of the job".

I'm getting tired of this. Look, all the people who say" promotion=success, not getting promoted = failure" please leave the discussion.

We DID have a (very) successful season, which of course could have been better, and yes it was spoiled by failing to beat a vulnerable Wakefield on the day. Does that draw a thick black marker pen over everything else we achieved on and off the field in 2015? I think not. If you think yes, then great, but why are you in the discussion, if you genuinely believe that all those things are totally irrelevant to the question of to what extent we had a successful season?

I have ghost-written a book

The Bulls Season 2015 Review
by mystic eddie and maislebugs

Didn't get promotion.
The End.

You seem prepared to totally ignore a raft of decisions vis a vis signings and selection. I'm not talking about the MPG in isolation but over the whole season key areas were in dire need of back up and key decisions were clearly not working. We signed the wrong players when better options were available, played props who even the coach thought unworthy of being on the pitch and let's not start on the 1 hooker f^£k up. None of this had anything to do with an unequal/unfair comp. Haifax weren't complaining about finances when a well drilled, energetic part time team beat us twice. We were lucky to beat Batley and Dewsbury.

By your analysis we are simply unable to judge because Wakefield may have spent/recieved more money, even though they also survived what looked like internal meltdown with players getting drunk, getting sacked, walking out or a combination of all 3. Down this route lies Mcnamaraland. A place where irrespective of what's on the pitch we have suffer deconstructions into it's tiniest parts and then herald the few positives (focus on youth???)

And finally, here's the bigger problem and the real point of this discussion. We seem divided into roughly two camps. The first, you, FA, Blotto finding positives out of the teams efforts on the basis that promotion is not really possible.

The 2nd that promotion was possible but that Lowes messed it up and has demonstrated that he is extremely unlikley to achieve promotion under what promises to be tougher circumstances. Sorry FA, this is the crux of the analysis on our season. What can we take from it going forward? I think on this we agree.

The club needs to face up to one key issue here. No matter your perspective on what happened last year we're 100% united in our expectation that we are NOT getting promoted next year either.

What are we going to say about crowds, financial stability etc in this context? They had one option to sell next season and they missed it.