|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 8108 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jan 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
Moderator
|
| What do we make of that 2002 grand final then.
19-18 up and Saints have only to run down the clock. Chris Joynt picked up the ball from dummy half and suddenly fell to the feet of Deacon and Lee Gilmour within kicking distance of the Saints’ goal post.
The RFL clearly state:
"A player in possession shall not deliberately and unnecessarily allow himself to be tackled by voluntarily falling to the ground when not held by an opponent. If a player drops on a loose ball he shall not remain on the ground waiting to be tackled if he has time to regain his feet and continue play."
A joke AND a disgrace?
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 964 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Aug 2012 | 12 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Dec 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| If I had a time machine I would deffo go back in time to this precise moment, watch it and probably tut loudly while shaking my head. I may even motion towards someone stood near me to watch in the hopes that they agree with me and tut and shake their heads too.
Then I would go and look at some dinosaurs.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 8108 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jan 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
Moderator
|
| I wasn't even born in 2002 but I know for a fact that it was one of the last 100 or so games Russell Smith ever reffed. Proof positive the RFL knew he'd robbed us.
Even Ian Millward was staggered at the lack of penalty as this still from Sky sports shows.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Board Member | 72 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2002 | 22 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2018 | Jul 2015 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| I have passed details on to my solicitor, who will be closely monitoring for baseless slanders
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 500 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2023 | Nov 2022 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Yay! A revival of the longest thread ever!
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 8108 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jan 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
Moderator
|
| Quote ="mumbyisgod"Yay! A revival of the longest thread ever!'"
Has this been discussed already? Apologies if that's the case.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 28357 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Feb 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
May 2024 | Oct 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Just for the benefit of those who may not know, JVT was the finest thread ever on any forum. It was mercilessly and shamefully culled, when it should have been kept for posterity. Cultural vandalism. Murderers.
But that incident was one topic that was not discussed. So, no, it hasn't been discussed already.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 8108 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jan 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
Moderator
|
| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Just for the benefit of those who may not know, JVT was the finest thread ever on any forum. It was mercilessly and shamefully culled, when it should have been kept for posterity. Cultural vandalism. Murderers.'"
VBFG claims I deleted it. I am a curmudgeon at times but I agree that would have been tantamount to murder and I refute those allegations. Whoever did it, I believe that ultimately it was switched off because it had become self-aware.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"But that incident was one topic that was not discussed. So, no, it hasn't been discussed already.'"
I'm sure the actual topic was discussed for a fair few pages at the beginning surely. But little by little morphed into something much more wonderful.
Can't we please try to do it again?
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 28357 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Feb 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
May 2024 | Oct 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| I don't know. Your post has stirred up some terrible memories of loss and pain. I'm not sure I could go through something like that once more. the wounds ran deep. Take a good look at my face. You'll see my smile looks out of place.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 17148 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| You're not the life & soul of the party because you tell a joke or two.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 3534 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jan 2012 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2020 | Feb 2020 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Who's trying to fool the public
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 8108 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jan 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
Moderator
|
| Quote ="roger daly"Who's trying to fool the public'"
They certainly are. Listening to how dire they sounded at Glastonbury, I'd say they are fooling themselves as well.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 10969 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2023 | Jun 2022 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
Moderator
|
| You can't say that! Glasto, and all things connected to it is a national institution and as such is beyond reproach.
It's a bit like saying Andy Murray isn't very good at tennis or the Queen is looking her age or even that one of those championship sides is ever going to lower the colours of the mighty Bulls..
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 32018 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
Moderator
|
| The Ooo were good I thought. Better than Kanye though that wouldn't take much.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 4526 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Dec 2024 | Oct 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Pumpetypump"They certainly are. Listening to how dire they sounded at Glastonbury, I'd say they are fooling themselves as well.'"
Thy might have fooled themselves but they won't get fooled again.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 9986 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2019 | Aug 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| This is so weird. I was talking to my daughter about the JVT last night at the game. She said why don't the players just fall on the ground when they have the ball and then they wouldn't get hurt being tackled.
Thus began my long explanation about being robbed by JVT.
I'm not sure she was overly interested now I think about it.
But glad it's back.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 7594 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
May 2021 | May 2021 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Pumpetypump"VBFG claims I deleted it. I am a curmudgeon at times but I agree that would have been tantamount to murder and I refute those allegations. Whoever did it, I believe that ultimately it was switched off because it had become self-aware. '"
You did delete it, and it was the moment the club's fortunes turned. You are to blame for everything and this shoddy facsimile is no substitute for fit half backs. I know what you're about and it won't work.
That's all I have to say on the matter.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 3534 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jan 2012 | 13 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Feb 2020 | Feb 2020 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| I think wide to West caused more damage to the Bulls fortunes
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 28357 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Feb 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
May 2024 | Oct 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="roger daly"I think wide to West caused more damage to the Bulls fortunes'"
now THAT one was cheating. Apart from it never being a penalty in the first place, Saints took the pen and were allowed to play on despite at least two players being several yards blatantly offside. A refs memo alleging the refs would be clamping down on offside at restarts having funnily enough just been publicized that very day. Oh yes. Cheated.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 8108 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jan 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | Jan 2025 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
Moderator
|
| The wide to bstrd west moment occasionally is shown with little warning in some sort of montage of doom. Despite my best efforts it unleashes some sort of primal anger in me whereby I rush furiously for the remote control. If I can't find it I hide in the kitchen or kick the telly.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 10969 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2023 | Jun 2022 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
Moderator
|
| Quote ="debaser"This is so weird. I was talking to my daughter about the JVT last night at the game. She said why don't the players just fall on the ground when they have the ball and then they wouldn't get hurt being tackled.
Thus began my long explanation about being robbed by JVT.
I'm not sure she was overly interested now I think about it.
But glad it's back.'"
You have a very perceptive daughter. ....and, of course they do "just fall to the ground", and invariably quite without sanction.
This usually occurs when players are near the boundary lines and perceive they may be in danger of being pushed out of the paddock or into the in-goal area and therefore having to concede possession. Catch the ball and hit the ground is the accepted tactic in such circumstances. Joynt though, he did it blatantly, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PITCH. That broke the unwritten rule about where it is ok to break the rules. Sine die wouldn't have been long enough.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 261 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Oct 2005 | 19 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Apr 2019 | Apr 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Bullseye"The Ooo were good I thought. Better than Kanye though that wouldn't take much.'"
Good lad!
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 28357 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Feb 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
May 2024 | Oct 2019 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Bulliac"You have a very perceptive daughter. ....and, of course they do "just fall to the ground", and invariably quite without sanction.
This usually occurs when players are near the boundary lines and perceive they may be in danger of being pushed out of the paddock or into the in-goal area and therefore having to concede possession. Catch the ball and hit the ground is the accepted tactic in such circumstances. Joynt though, he did it blatantly, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PITCH. That broke the unwritten rule about where it is ok to break the rules. Sine die wouldn't have been long enough.'"
Meh. You are just another one that doesn't understand the rule. In fact, I sometimes wonder whether I'm the only one who does understand the damn thing. Which is odd, as it's not difficult.
Read the rule again, but this time morecarefully
Quote A player in possession shall not deliberately and unnecessarily allow himself to be tackled by voluntarily falling to the ground when not held by an opponent.'"
Now analyse it. The question is, can I legally DELIBERATELY ALLOW MYSELF TO BE TACKLED BY VOLUNTARILY FALLING ON THE GROUND? Yes or no?
The answer is, of course "YES"! But that simple fact is what seems to escape 99% of observers! Why? because they aren't used to carefully reading, I suppose.
The only time my deliberate voluntary falling down IS illegal is if, AS WELL AS doing it "deliberately", I also do it "UNNECESSARILY".
That is, BOTH elements are needed to break the rule. If I fall unnecessarily, that's OK, if i didn't do it deliberately. And if i do it deliberately then that's OK oo, - as long as it was not done unnecessarily.
What you need to therefore know is, what constitutes "unnecessarily"? I would think it perfectly reasonable to argue "it was necessary for me to do that, because otherwise I could have ended up in goal and conceded a drop-out."
But, the rule doesn't define what MIGHT BE "NECESSARILY" AND WHAT MIGHT NOT, AND SO IT IS ENTIRELY UP TO THE INTERPRETATION OF THE REFS. If they deem that the deliberate drop was done "necessarily" then it is play on.
If trying to prevent a dropout isn't, for a pro player, necessary, then I don't know what else the word in the rule could have in mind.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Star | 1795 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jan 2011 | 14 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Apr 2021 | Jan 2021 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| very perceptive FA. clearly it was deliberate, so deliberate that Deacon saw it coming and moved out of the way. And in doing so ensured that Joynt unnecessarily fell to the ground. so on the face of it both conditions met. and so clearly, against all the values that made England great, nautural justice, sportsmanship, never cheating or taking drugs, not betting on your team, etc etc it was not a voluntary tackle.
However it was not a voluntary tackle for different excuses (I simply cannot use the word reason in this context). The letter I got back from the RFL as a response to my "we was robbed" letter to them querying the decision actually made no reference at all to deliberate and unnecessary. What it referred to was some arrangement that the RFL and referees and clubs had come to at the start of the season regarding tackles. They had come up with two options, one chosen by Saints and epitomised by them the whole of that season and the Joynt voluntary tackle. IIRC you could either throw yourself at your tackler and down in which case because it was a fast PtB the other side were not as tightly refereed for infringements eg not square etc or choice no 2 you stayed upright and the opposition had to put you down but they were mercilessly refereed for infringements in the tackle and at the rather slow PtB. Each club had to elect for one or the other. Saints elected to throw themselves to the ground. So Joynt was perfectly entitled to throw himself at Deacon. But Deacon was not entitled to deliberately move away from the tackle, ie a voluntary non-tackle.
I know that this sounds as if I have made it up. Well, actually the RFL have made it up. I wish I had kept the letter so I could have posted it up, but I kid you not, the RFL - in fact Stuart Cummins - explained it that way. I was so disgusted I burnt the letter. In essence, because it was a non-tackle, it was therefore not a voluntary tackle. And I can point to a bit of circumstantial evidence, that Saints that season threw themselves at the tackler on numerous occasions, and it used to annoy the hell out of me. To be told that the RFL had told them they could do that was like putting a match to Stanlow Refinery.
And for those of you about to post a response, yes I did write back pointing out that nowhere in the rules does it say that a player has to make a tackle, so they were talking complete dribble, but I did not get a reply. perhaps they were fed up with being told they were idiots.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Coach | 4526 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2005 | 20 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Dec 2024 | Oct 2024 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| "A player in possession shall not deliberately and unnecessarily allow himself to be tackled by voluntarily falling to the ground when not held by an opponent."
Whilst agreeing with FA to come extent surely there are 3 not 2 elements to the rule. Deliberately and unnecessarily are two but the third element is 'allow himself to be tackled'. Therefore a player (who for the sake of argument we will call Joynt) that runs up to two players and throws himself to the ground has only fulfilled two of the conditions in that he has deliberately and unnecessarily gone to ground nut has not allowed himself to be tackled until a tackle is completed. If the wording of the rule was changed to "A player in possession shall not deliberately and unnecessarily with the intention of allowing himself to be tackled by voluntarily falling to the ground when not held by an opponent" then he would have committed said offence. Numerous examples of voluntary tackles were committed by Saints at this time whereby the players would run into tacklers and throw themselves to the ground with the intention of dropping and then jumping up for a quick play the ball. This led to the referees shouting out that the player had submitted to the tackle and the defenders had longer to lay on when the ref should have just penalised him.
|
|
|
|
|