I have a rare day off this week so being the masochist that I am, I will forgo the German Market here in Leeds and come and see yours. Is it any good this year? I remember when they had a forlorn one down in Centenary square a few years back. It sort of evaporated most of the christmas cheer I had just visiting it.

I believe it is now on Darley Street so that it can expand to fill the limited space available.

Sack that off and try the Record Cafe on North Parade. I've not been yet and want to know what it's like.

Don't know much about the German Market, planning a visit later this week. The Record Cafe is awesome and is well worth a visit.

just two problems with that. I don't know what the record cafe is or which Road is North parade.

North Parade is where The Sparrow is. That's all the information you need.

The last Bradford Xmas market we tried truly was dire. Worst thing I've ever been to, and I include root canal treatments.

OTOH Clayton Dickensian market (which I think is this weekend) was just the job, a fine and compact bustling mix of interesting stalls and varied grub, surrounded by pubs and clubs.

A market is for life, not just for Christmas.

Is it vaguely near the city gent? I went to brighouse christmas market at the weekend for a slow trudge past fudge. What I like is that potent combo of too many people, painfully crawling past stalls of things you don't want.

Can you interest me in a taster of your cheese? Yes please! Do I want to choose three nuggets of it for £10? No I'm ok ta.

I went to the one in Leeds last week. It's pretty pathetic and I've no idea why they've bothered. Go to the Manchester one.

Just another example of the small provincial city/large town of Leeds not competing with it's more important neighbours like Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham etc.

It is not and never will be a major city. Despite what the inhabitants like to believe. It hasn't even got trams.

They should get Lawrence Llewellyn Bowen to organise it, that Xmas wonderland thing sounds a right laugh. Wonder if they will be doing reindeer burgers?

Not sure that upmarket stuff would cut the mustard in down to earth Yorkshire..

Well the attraction of the Leeds one is based almost entirely on the fact that I can just about see it from where I'm typing now.

Leeds is a provincial city with utter delusions of grandeur. It is a consumerist nirvana but I think the actual inhabitants aren't all that well catered for. For a start there's no ice rink housed in a 1960s hellhole of a building, and that's basically a pre-requisite for any major city in my book.

Touched a raw nerve there. It's the achilles heel of anyone from Leeds - they can't accept the notion that 'super' Leeds is not one of Britain's major cities. No trams and not even a real arena.

No one from Bradford claims the same so your comment re. the ice skating rink won't get a rise. Also I'm a Bradford Bulls fans so actually from Halifax.

But in all seriousness when Westfield opens and the Odean is revamped Bradford will overtake Leeds and Leeds City centre will be like a dead end ghost town. Wakefield a large Wakefield.

I've always thought my achilles heel is being born and raised in a city I don't like all that much. I have whatever is the opposite of civic pride.

Mind you it grew up on a largely flat area by a river, whereas Bradford inexplicably is clinging to various irritating inclines with the odd stream. Leeds wins that one.

According to historians, the various culverted streams were much more vigorous and generally more important in days gone by than they are now - one might say, that was, in many ways, a metaphor for the city itself. Though I, as a born and bred Bradfordian, couldn't comment. Mainly 'cos it makes me rather sad.

Sorry for diverting from the original topic, but while we're having a go at Leeds, I seem to remember someone commenting a while ago about how the fortunes of Bradford and Leeds came to diverge so spectacularly, particularly from the early 80s onwards. I'm trying to find some information on this subject - does anyone have any references?

There are a number or reasons, to be fair. Not least the [variousgovernment decisions to 'centre' things on Leeds like road and rail transport which leaves leaves Bradford, which has around 500K inhabitants within the region, on a branch line and which gave Leeds a direct motorway link to London and left us in the doldrums for many years until the M62 joined up to the M1.

In the eighties, Thatcher made Leeds a 'development area', whilst simultaneously ignoring Bradford and clearly not caring about the effect this status for the city ten miles away, would have on its immediate neighbours. Which effectively meant many firms left Bradford for Leeds just to get all the government handouts which came with development area status.

I was in there last Friday, it's not bad. City gent has more character but then Record Cafe has more people/atmosphere. Decent ales too.

Have a go at Als Dime Bar if you're up there too. Its a friendly, fun place and they've normally got some good ales on, plus various beers from around the world and some top notch cocktails too. That creme egg martini I had last time I was in there, while not quite affirming my manliness, tasted lovely.

I'm in record cafe. It has a fresh paint smell and seems nice enough. Sparrow was ok but don't really see what the fuss is about it.

Market was pants. Bought mead. Drinking scrumpy.

Generally agreed, but the fuss is that it exists.

That makes sense. The vibe about bradford is markedly more upbeat than a few years ago in my opinion. Two little cafe bars being open close to one another is a good barometer of a modest upturn in the city's fortunes.

The record cafe had an upstairs area that sold black frisbees with writing on. Haven't a clue what they were. I preferred the layout to the cramped style of the sparrow.

Sparrow has a downstairs seating area too. Was that full as well?

Well I didn't know that!

You obviously didn't stay long, then, as that's the only route to the bogs.