[url=http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/we-are-a-muslim-please-by-zaiba-malik-2027385.htmlIndy review[/url

Heard an extract on Radio 4. Sounded interesting, particularly for Bradfordians. Anyone read it?

Nope. But I may ask the library to get a copy.

I was struck with these lines in the review:

[iImmigrants have always struggled to make sense of the competing claims of different cultures until the emergence of a successful new middle-class resolves the conflict. British-born Islamists, such as the 7/7 bombers, have consciously tried to halt that process, but it is to thoughtful people like Malik that the future belongs. [/i

Does becoming "middle class" necessarily resolve the conflict of cultures? I would say that it's more accurate to say that education is the key to resolving conflict. Most prejudice after all is born out of ignorance.

I hope people like Malik are "the future". Unfortunately I fear they will be drowned out by the extremists on both sides. Is anyone else worried about what may happen if/when the EDL march takes place on Bank Holiday?

Whats it got to do with Bradford Bulls RL?

The subject line says "OT"

OT is other topic? sorry for my ignorance

Aye.

Fair enough.. As for the EDL demo which is planned, it should go ahead.

It will be a sad day in this country when you can't voice your opinion in an orderly, democratic fashion without being censored or even attacked. That said i think i'll be staying out of Bradford on the day!

Depends what you think being middle class is. A former colleague of mine joked that he was going to turn up on degree day at Sheffield Uni with a big banner saying 'welcome to the middle classes'.

I think if any march is likely to cause a lot of public disorder then it shouldn't be allowed to take place. I expect the powers that be to take a view based on that analysis.

That applies to any demo be it by EDL, Hizb ut Tahrir or anyone else.

Indeed, I thought it was a bit of a lazy generalisation by the reviewer.

Perhaps watching this will help! www.infidelmovie.com

Perhaps watching this will help! www.infidelmovie.com

IMO a legitimate and properly-stewarded (and insured) protest march should always be allowed to go ahead - provided it has relevance to the location, is designed to draw attention to a legitimate cause rather than primarily to wind up the locals, and is planned so disruption to everyone else is minimised. Its surely a key element of democratic freedom that is denied to those blessed with a fascist or communist "government"?

The exception is where the protest appears to lack any connection with the location, and/or appears designed not primarily as a legitimate protest but instead primarily to wind up or incite the locals or a shipped-in rentamob and attract the wrong kind of media attention, or is likely to break the law in some way.

Which category does the EDL proposed march fall into?

And who decides?

The issue here isn't free speech, the EDL are fully entitled to air their unpleasant views and reveal themselves to be a buch of thick ignorant bigots in the process. As someone who fully opposes their views I fully support their rights to hold them.

In this instance however the EDL coming to Bradford is more likely to lead to violence and even a repeat of what happened in 2001 if there are sufficiant reasons to believe that this will be the case then the march should be stopped imho and it no longer becomes an issue of free speech.

One of the leaders of the EDL said that Bradford was going to be one the places that the EDL would "hit" which suggests that the intentions of the EDL are far from peaceful.

Fine words, however you can now be arrested for doing just that.
As for the 'new middle-class' I am not sure who she means. Some of the most insidious racism I have witnessed in Bradford, & elsewhere, has come from relatively successful professionals. Whether they are 'middle-class' depends on your definition I suppose. Maybe the 'working-class' don't have the means to express their racism, or frustration, other than overtly. As Sam says, it's nowt to do with class. It's down to how children are educated, & that is primarily down to parenting; which is a very difficult topic. (Should racists, homophobes, drug addicts be allowed to have children?)
If you care about the future of Bradford you should be there on the day of the EDL march.

Some of the things the EDL speak out against (militant islam and the islamification of england) i agree with but the problem is the certain element of people (hooligans) they attract to their cause. Just as the UAF attract a certain element of thugs to theirs.

There are lots of things I am against, organised religion being one of them. I am more afraid of Americanised Christianity than I am of Islam. Just because a few radical clerics say they want England to be an Islamic state, & the Daily Mail reports it, doesn't mean it is likely to happen.

I agree with your point of organised religion but i do believe its more than just "a few radical clerics". There is a sense of total division in some areas of Bradford and other parts of the UK. IMO..

The EDL is planning to 'hit' Bradford for two, not unconnected, reasons. The first is that, whether you like it or not, there is a deep-seated distrust, resentment and in many cases I am afraid even hatred of the large and increasing Pakistani community. Second, if you want to provoke major disorder, then a pretty safe bet is to go somewhere where it has all kicked off before, and where there is no shortage of hotheads and agents provocateurs on both sides who would dearly love it all to kick off again.

I'm not sure what tigertot means. Surely, the best way to make your point and ensure the EDL's time is wasted would be if nobody, at all, as in absolutely not one person turned up to be their much-desired audience? No TV crews, no cameramen, no counter-protesters - nobody? The police could let them trudge around non-residential streets till they got fed up and once they were tired of chanting slogans at stone walls and empty bus shelters, they'd get peed off and crawl back to their holes?

It's fairly well known that the media give totally disproportionate coverage to extremists. Those extremists stage publicity stunts to get this coverage. They never give the moderate voices the same prominence.

It's possible to oppose "muslim extremism" without supporting an extremist group like the EDL. For instance I know of several muslim groups that oppose "muslim extremism".

But you are afraid of both, is the point. And rightly so. Once you get a country where militant islam is the 'government', your life can no longer be the same, and the Taliban is never far behind.

As to the likelihood of it happening, some years back one prominent muslim forecast that islam had no need of a war to take over the west, it would just happen peacefully, by weight of numbers. A recent [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10607480University of Leeds study[/url says the proportion of black, Asian and other ethnic minorities will rise from 8% of the population, as recorded in the 2001 census, to 20% by 2051. Trends can change, and forecasts can be wrong, but in terms of 'likely to happen' it doesn't take much extrapolation from that to get to 51% especially as birth rate, not immigration, is the major driver of the changes in proportions, and so if similar trends in numbers of children continue in future generations then you could go so far as to say it would be inevitable. Of course, any such studies can in the end only be speculation based on previous behaviour, but then again, on the published figues, something would have to significantly change for it (an islamic state, on the basis of the democratic wish of a majority) not to happen.

Assuming of course that all the descendants would vote for that, you might for example take the view that the descendants of muslims will not themselves increasingly remain muslims, although I can't remember seeing much evidence of that.

If your freedom impinges on the freedom of others, it's no longer simply a question of freedom. They are coming here with the expressed intent of causing harm. This is not a freedom issue.

Why should those scumbags be allowed to march around Bradford? They are coming for one reason only, to cause trouble. I hope its banned.

Why are any of these marches allowed to take place?

Have to agree with that, but there is no way the media will stay away. And I am almost inclined to make a trip into Bradford to make the point that these d!kcheads are not going to drive me out of my city.

Well, if they were just roundly booed and catcalled wherever they went i suppose that would be an alternative, but it's just unrealistic to think that if there are two sizeable opposing factions, it won't kick off. It is guaranteed to.
The only realistic way to deal with it is to ban it.

However objectionable if they were all Bradford people wanting to demonstrate peacably in their own city then that might be different, but as that is not at all the case, we don't need to discuss it.

Beats me, but I'd be surprised if the Bradford one goes ahead if the fuzz have think it's going to kick off. They don't want a repeat of past events. Bradford's never really recovered from the riots so another occurance is the last things anyone wants apart from the EDL.

Like you I hope it's banned.