Seems I'm unable to split threads anymore so I've posted some of the posts from the new signings thread below as it's a good debate and it deserved a thread of its own. Quote ="woolly07"SL clubs will be delighted at having another club bringing no away support so they will all be hoping Fev make it.'" Quote ="Pumpetypump"I reckon Toulouse untaps greater SKY viewers and potentially better TV deals. I think that's got to be seen as being more important than the relative handful of Featherstone fans swelling home gates.'" Quote ="Bully_Boxer"Better TV deals? Toulouse have been around for long enough and Sky haven't shown much interest in broadcasting their matches before now. I'm not sure what image it projects where we have to have the French sides in the English comp because their isn't enough players or sides to make up a competitive league in France. I guess it papers over a few cracks though and creates an illusion tha the game is expanding.'" Quote ="Bullseye"Well if you look at other sports then having some international club competition is seen as a benefit when attracting coverage and sponsorship. Now we're a million miles off this in RL so a couple of French clubs in SL is probably the best we can do at the moment. If we want to attract blue chip sponsors and not Foxy Bingo and Marrowfat Peas/Big Soup then we need to show we're not just a sport played by thick working class northerners. Having Toulouse in the elite comp with Catalans helps give the game a less parochial look.'" Quote ="Bulls Boy 2011"I think it could be good it Catalans and Toulouse can win their respective competitions.'" Quote ="Bully_Boxer"It's nonsense in RL though, the sport needs to prioritise getting the homelands strong. We've heard this all before with London.. presence in the capital is vital etc etc but they've generally been a joke moving from one place to another every season or so. Blue chip companies aren't going to look at RL with our without a couple of French side made up of a decent contingent of Aussies.'" Quote ="M@islebugs"45000 empty seats at Wembley exploded that myth for me. I don't quite get the RL's acute embarrassment at its own support base. There's something of the modern Labour party about it all. I think this is interesting; https://www.theguardian.com/sport/no-he ... per-league Let's see what happens on Saturday night but at some point we need some evidence, i.e sold out stadiums with 'new' fans and TV deals increasing because of the draw of Les Catalans outside the heartland.'"

Seems I'm unable to split threads anymore so I've posted some of the posts from the new signings thread below as it's a good debate and it deserved a thread of its own. Quote ="woolly07"SL clubs will be delighted at having another club bringing no away support so they will all be hoping Fev make it.'" Quote ="Pumpetypump"I reckon Toulouse untaps greater SKY viewers and potentially better TV deals. I think that's got to be seen as being more important than the relative handful of Featherstone fans swelling home gates.'" Quote ="Bully_Boxer"Better TV deals? Toulouse have been around for long enough and Sky haven't shown much interest in broadcasting their matches before now. I'm not sure what image it projects where we have to have the French sides in the English comp because their isn't enough players or sides to make up a competitive league in France. I guess it papers over a few cracks though and creates an illusion tha the game is expanding.'" Quote ="Bullseye"Well if you look at other sports then having some international club competition is seen as a benefit when attracting coverage and sponsorship. Now we're a million miles off this in RL so a couple of French clubs in SL is probably the best we can do at the moment. If we want to attract blue chip sponsors and not Foxy Bingo and Marrowfat Peas/Big Soup then we need to show we're not just a sport played by thick working class northerners. Having Toulouse in the elite comp with Catalans helps give the game a less parochial look.'" Quote ="Bulls Boy 2011"I think it could be good it Catalans and Toulouse can win their respective competitions.'" Quote ="Bully_Boxer"It's nonsense in RL though, the sport needs to prioritise getting the homelands strong. We've heard this all before with London.. presence in the capital is vital etc etc but they've generally been a joke moving from one place to another every season or so. Blue chip companies aren't going to look at RL with our without a couple of French side made up of a decent contingent of Aussies.'" Quote ="M@islebugs"45000 empty seats at Wembley exploded that myth for me. I don't quite get the RL's acute embarrassment at its own support base. There's something of the modern Labour party about it all. I think this is interesting; https://www.theguardian.com/sport/no-he ... per-league Let's see what happens on Saturday night but at some point we need some evidence, i.e sold out stadiums with 'new' fans and TV deals increasing because of the draw of Les Catalans outside the heartland.'"

Sort of. But how does the Labour party reconnect with quittling parts of the north like Wakefield and Leigh? The party machine knows brexit is a catastrophe for the working man and woman of the north. And yet the working man and woman of the north bloody love it. So either Labour lie about it and get them to come back, or they tell the truth and people keep voting blue which is exactly the same as taking a running kick at your own face.

Sorry. I'll shut up now.

Why doesn't it explain to them that they're horrible idiots who don't understand their own best interests because I'm guessing that's never happened before?

Lots of definitions here. I'm happy with heartlands including York, Newcastle and Cumbria. Those 3 areas have either a large (NE) or wealthy (York) population and at least know what RL is. I'm not sure how a Cumbrian team gets into SL though as they currently are but that question has been rolling around for a long time.

In the short term, either Fev or Toulouse will get a shot. Toulouse are the better long term bet, as are Newcastle and York. Toulouse will not have financial issues, they'll have decent quality, wealthy sponsors lining up. They'll spend full cap immediately.

But they need to add value to the competition (crudely - what $$$ do the other clubs get) and that asks the questions - will there be higher value competition sponsors? will there be higher value TV deals in the combined pot? I think Toulouse now (sorry Fev) and then Newcastle in 2-3 years will increase value.

Looking at how Catalans have developed into the best supported team in SL and the potential in the south of France (a heartland of the game) I think Toulouse could do very well. They're well financed and are far too too professional a setup for the championship.

I'm not sure York has the population and scope to be a successful SL club but they do things properly off the field in stark comparison with a few others including us and Fev. Cumbria is far too divided to ever get behind one team and that's what holds it back.

Newcastle will hopefully show what putting sound foundations in place can achieve. The game is growing there in contrast with some of the older "heartlands" and should be encouraged.

That's sort of my point. They can't say that, and nor can they say with any credibility that leaving the EU was the right choice. They can't win. Anyway I'm not stamping my strong political views on here, I shouldn't have mentioned it.

We need to strengthen our homelands I agree, but when there are genuine shoots of real expansion we need to really nurture it. Hemel was an example of a town where the game was actually being played in the schools (unthinkable!) and the future seemed really bright to get Hemel embedded into our league structure and growing. How did we manage to stuff that one up?! There's never going to be a better candidate for expansion and it was allowed to wither.

We lost a load of development officers when we had a cut in Sport England funding IIRC. They do an invaluable job.

Sorry excuse my backward looking M62 myopia but 5 French players and swathes of empty seats. What is the upside? The French RL team is arguably worse than ever. If expansion means less people scattered over a greater geographical area then RL has achieved it.

Hard to disagree. The sport is a mess at the moment and I don't see it getting better anytime soon with the current numpty Rimmer in the RFL hotseat and the SL clubs only voting whatever gives them the best short term gain.

Meanwhile whilst we are growing the game in France, crowds are dwindling over here and broadcasting deals seeing huge cuts. By all means, push for expansion but sure to god it has to be a position of strength rather than desperation.

If SL and the RFL had a clue how to market the game they'd sell out all the showpiece games. Rugby Union has always managed it despite the games being a much poorer spectacle.

Craig Lingard suggested bringing back the old "double header" to Old Trafford. So play the million pound game and the grand final on the same day. I think that's a superb idea. I loved the old double header premiership finals.

Just over 9000 in 19K seater stadium. Not too shady imo

And besides, we have very little credibility in ragging on other teams for having 'swathes of empty seats'

100%. It's a really great argument for a French league with French clubs producing French players to make up a strong France team. That would be truly brilliant. If the TV deal reflected added interest either here or in France that would be some positive. But the TV deal is reduced which suggests not. In short what is the criteria for judging the addition of French teams to the SL a success? If it's somewhat haughty abstract articles in the Guardian saying how great it is because it brings much wider attention while revenues fall, then we might have to face up the fact this is the King's new clothes.

I went to many finals with the Bulls and don't remember swathes of empty seats. Even as truly dull as we are now we're still better supported than many SL clubs.

Toulouse will be a great addition to the Super League and they are a great example of how to grow a team sustainably over a period of time. 9,000 attendance is a great achievement and if they can sustain that and grow in SL then fair play to them.

I think overall there is around 50% of their squad eligible to play for the French national team and to my knowledge they abide with all the rules in relation to overseas signing etc. so don't see what the fuss is about.

On the flip side, I'm gutted that we lose an away trip to France (for those who have not been, Toulouse is a brilliant place to visit) and instead we have to endure another year of Fev Rovers who continue attract an element of fans who seem to want to cause trouble everywhere they go. Needless to say that is two games I'll be avoiding as I don't wish to expose my young kids to being swore at, spat at and just in general be aggressively intimidated.

They might not be a great addition for long if the restructuring happens as rumoured. They’re going to have to sign some quality to be competitive enough to make the top 10.

Fev are an ambitious club but I can't see them ever becoming a top SL team. They're too small for that. In their heyday they were always the plucky underdog from a little town managing to spring the occasional upset but for the most part they yo-yo between the 1st and 2nd tier.

Good luck to them but like Bullinenemyland I've found Fev increasingly unwelcome in recent years despite the ground itself being very good. They've always had a few idiots in their following (anyone remember the 1989 YC Final?) and need to weed them out. Not that we're squeaky clean in that dept either.

I was reading Tony Collins's superb Rugby League in the 20th Century - A Social and Cultural History recently - I recommend it. The passage on the game between 1975 and 1995 is particularly good. We seem to be at a crossroads in the game that is very similar to the early 70s. Back then they struggled to fill stadiums. Crowds were at a low ebb. The game lacked leadership, people's habits had changed. The RFL brought in Oxley and Howes to replace Bill Fallowfield and they transformed things. The game's income from sponsorship went from 4k to over 400k in 7 years. A hundred fold increase. Crowds increased again and the game was on the up by the 80s. We need transformative change like that from the top again.

To be fair to Fev, I recall less than welcoming receptions at plenty of SL clubs such as Wakey, Wire and Saints. Plenty of songs with colourful language broadcast over Sky. We also have our element who recently let the club down so I don't see it as a reason for them not being deserving of a chance if and when it ever comes.

Clubs like Fev will be around long after some rich folk in France have got bored of funding a SL club. Granted a trip to Fev isn't as as appealing as a jaunt to France but let's not be so dismissive of teams that live and breathe the sport.

I'd argue Fev are a bigger club than the likes of Salford who look to be heading back to the wilderness after a brief flirt with some success and now uncertainty over their stadium.

Well I’m not singling Fev out for their undesirable element – just saying they have one, which is undeniable. I also said we do too and I didn’t see anyone on this thread cite that as a reason they shouldn’t be promoted. As for Fev “being around” long after “some rich folk get bored” well what can I say? If you take that attitude to its logical conclusion we should turn down anyone with any money unless they’re from an area that played RL since at least 1889. RL has been played in France for nearly 100 years now so they’re hardly “johnny come latelys”. In fact they have shown more commitment to the game than many over here when you look at how their game was banned during the war, had all its assets seized and couldn’t even call itself “rugby league” until the 1990s. Now they’ve got their act together on and off the field they should be fairly rewarded.



Salford have won plenty in their history – more than Fev in fact. However they’re both yo-yo teams if you look at the past 40 years so not completely dissimilar in terms of playing record. Ironically Salford were the leading club off the field in the 1960s and 1970s when the game was in the doldrums (like now). They diversified their business and were commercially successful. So much so that the RFL used them as an example for others to follow. If either Salford or Fev or the British game is going to thrive they need to look outside their immediate traditional audience as well as old fogeys like you and me.

Interesting points about the 70s.

I heard Paul Rowley discussing Toronto. He was very pro-Canadian RL and had coached there but he said the main issue was the total absence of a plan of what the game would or should look like in 10 years time and what the benefit of that would be.
There was nothing to judge anything by and asked why would any teams supporters agree to their being replaced in SL by a team with no cultural relevance to them.

I'm really interested in watching a tightly fought GB v France game but watching Toulouse is akin to watching racing from Turfontein or the IPL. SO, what is the plan? Or is it just whoever comes along with money to fund a club can get to the SL and another once proud club goes into a league with zero funding on an inexorable journey to becoming Oldham? I don't want to watch that, much less pay for it because it renders our game soulless, and without meaning, which I think is what Rowley really meant.

Quote ="M@islebugs"SO, what is the plan? Or is it just whoever comes along with money to fund a club can get to the SL and another once proud club goes into a league with zero funding on an inexorable journey to becoming Oldham? I don't want to watch that, much less pay for it because it renders our game soulless, and without meaning, which I think is what Rowley really meant.'" Ask Ralph what the plan is... But it's always been like this. The successful clubs are the ones with financial backing that are well run. Once that disappears the rot sets in. It's been the case for just about every club. It just happens to be that Catalans and Toulouse are successful at the moment. Would you be happier to see them failing? I daresay it won't last forever because it never does. The game as a whole is in a rut just like it was in the late 60s/early 70s. People losing interest and finding other ways to spend their time so fewer people playing and watching. Clubs struggling financially. A vacuum of ideas and leadership at the top. Self interest filling the vacuum. Anyone on here remember when the RFL asked some external consultants to do a root and branch review into the game? It was called the Caine Report it was ruthless in it's criticism of the RFL. I can't see Ralph commissioning something like this again but it's what is needed. Tony Collins writes about it all here - so many paralells: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rwe ... ue&f=false

Quote ="M@islebugs"SO, what is the plan? Or is it just whoever comes along with money to fund a club can get to the SL and another once proud club goes into a league with zero funding on an inexorable journey to becoming Oldham? I don't want to watch that, much less pay for it because it renders our game soulless, and without meaning, which I think is what Rowley really meant.'" Ask Ralph what the plan is... But it's always been like this. The successful clubs are the ones with financial backing that are well run. Once that disappears the rot sets in. It's been the case for just about every club. It just happens to be that Catalans and Toulouse are successful at the moment. Would you be happier to see them failing? I daresay it won't last forever because it never does. The game as a whole is in a rut just like it was in the late 60s/early 70s. People losing interest and finding other ways to spend their time so fewer people playing and watching. Clubs struggling financially. A vacuum of ideas and leadership at the top. Self interest filling the vacuum. Anyone on here remember when the RFL asked some external consultants to do a root and branch review into the game? It was called the Caine Report it was ruthless in it's criticism of the RFL. I can't see Ralph commissioning something like this again but it's what is needed. Tony Collins writes about it all here - so many paralells: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rwe ... ue&f=false

Thanks for link Bullseye, a very interesting read

I'd like to grab a copy of that book but - wow - the price is eye-watering! I'm going to keep a lookout for a reasonably priced second-hand copy.

Second hand ones on Amazon for about £20.

Quote ="Bullseye"Ask Ralph what the plan is... But it's always been like this. The successful clubs are the ones with financial backing that are well run. Once that disappears the rot sets in. It's been the case for just about every club. It just happens to be that Catalans and Toulouse are successful at the moment. Would you be happier to see them failing? I daresay it won't last forever because it never does. The game as a whole is in a rut just like it was in the late 60s/early 70s. People losing interest and finding other ways to spend their time so fewer people playing and watching. Clubs struggling financially. A vacuum of ideas and leadership at the top. Self interest filling the vacuum. Anyone on here remember when the RFL asked some external consultants to do a root and branch review into the game? It was called the Caine Report it was ruthless in it's criticism of the RFL. I can't see Ralph commissioning something like this again but it's what is needed. Tony Collins writes about it all here - so many paralells: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rwe ... ue&f=false'" It hasn't always been like this. Collins speaks of the move from regional to national identity with the advent of TV among other things. How does 2 French and an intended Canadian team sit within this? It's radical by any standards and any sport. We're down to 10 top flight English clubs and fewer academies with 2nd tier cast adrift. Go ask Ralph about the plan?? I'm saying it's a self-evident disaster with falling TV deal, attendances, crucially at major events. You're saying admitting 2 French teams with no evidence, idea or plan whatsoever of potential benefit is of itself a good thing because it sort of looks a bit less northern and depressing.

Quote ="Bullseye"Ask Ralph what the plan is... But it's always been like this. The successful clubs are the ones with financial backing that are well run. Once that disappears the rot sets in. It's been the case for just about every club. It just happens to be that Catalans and Toulouse are successful at the moment. Would you be happier to see them failing? I daresay it won't last forever because it never does. The game as a whole is in a rut just like it was in the late 60s/early 70s. People losing interest and finding other ways to spend their time so fewer people playing and watching. Clubs struggling financially. A vacuum of ideas and leadership at the top. Self interest filling the vacuum. Anyone on here remember when the RFL asked some external consultants to do a root and branch review into the game? It was called the Caine Report it was ruthless in it's criticism of the RFL. I can't see Ralph commissioning something like this again but it's what is needed. Tony Collins writes about it all here - so many paralells: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Rwe ... ue&f=false'" It hasn't always been like this. Collins speaks of the move from regional to national identity with the advent of TV among other things. How does 2 French and an intended Canadian team sit within this? It's radical by any standards and any sport. We're down to 10 top flight English clubs and fewer academies with 2nd tier cast adrift. Go ask Ralph about the plan?? I'm saying it's a self-evident disaster with falling TV deal, attendances, crucially at major events. You're saying admitting 2 French teams with no evidence, idea or plan whatsoever of potential benefit is of itself a good thing because it sort of looks a bit less northern and depressing.

The game has shrunk since the financial crash, no doubt about it. That for me is the main cause of the state things are in. Lack of money. And it's only going to get worse as TV money dries up. The game doesn't (and never has had) a model other than "rich clubs are the most successful" so those with wealthy owners end up in SL. Maybe it should have a different model? What would that look like? We already have a salary cap but still only 4 winners of SL in 25 years.

I was dubious about Toronto because of the lack of any firm foundations there, I always thought it was doomed. In France though the game has grassroots and has been played there for nearly 100 years. I've nothing against a French team in SL just like I've nothing against NZ Warriors playing in the NRL.

I think we share concerns about the state of the game in this country and that's down to a lack of leadership and expertise in the RFL and clubs. Chucking out Catalans and Toulouse and replacing them with Leigh and Fev wouldn't change a thing for the positive IMO.