The simple problem is defence. Our attack may be flat at times and the distribution is weak (seeing as getting it wide now appears to mean having Lomax running with it to take it there). However, yesterday Wigoon won pretty much every collision which was more than enough to win the game without moving out of second gear. I wouldn't even say their defence was that great (because we created enough half chances to win), it was just easily better than our's.

Whenever we were tackling it was to stop the momentum after the collision. When Wigoon were tackling they were aiming to win the collision and then drive us back. Our defence focused on containment and their's was like a budget version of our all-conquering Super League XI side, driving us back even in the last ten minutes. I can barely recall us doing similar to any of their fowards and yet every tackle in the trenches should be a contest like that. Yesterday it wasn't and the scoreline reflected that. Talk all you want about our inability to score near the line but it doesn't matter if we can't establish an influential defensive platform from which to launch those attacks. Wigoon gifted us the ball when they weren't playing well but were able to defend. Their first attack? A stroll in as our outside backs faced a blitzkreig of attackers.

Those same outside backs read the subsequent 'blitzkreigs' very well though, on our right at least. Makinson and Shenton did some excellent work in defence. Just a shame they hardly ever saw the ball in attack.

I'm talking talent and ability NOT current form, numb-nuts [ias I said previously[/i... Wigan are on a high, confident, focused, well managed, well-structured and flying. Saints are fractured, riddled with internal shenanigans and distractions and are labouring under a temporary and cobbled-together coaching setup. [iOf course the majority of Wigan's players are outperforming the majority of Saints players right now[/i - that is not the ****ing point! Your argument is a bit like clamping a Formula 1 car and then claiming that a Mondeo is quicker than it....

Get some order and structure (that word again) back in the Saints ranks together with some competitive tactics and a couple of signings and we'd be a better team than you are - fact.

Jeez, but the level of denseness is strong in this one....

surely talent/ability isnt coached though? especially not coached out of an individual after 2 months.

Lee Smith, before and after his 6 week RU adventure

You are the one that is looking dense, and even denser with every post you make. I have noticed that even your own fans laugh at how stupid your posts are. You can use whatever measure you like form, talent, ability its up to you but the result is the same. Many of your players are distinctly average and wouldnt get in the Wigan team, or the likes of Warrington and Leeds for that matter.

You are in complete denial about how average your players are. Your younger players arent even that good and the ones that have potential are far from the finished article. Your older players are average and/or are past their best and are very poor compared to the senior players in past St Helens teams. Saints at the moment are reminiscent of various teams that have declined in the past, like Wigan and Bradford a few years ago, that it is uncanny. Great players have left in successive seasons and in nearly every case have been replaced by very average ones and this coupled with the fact that many of your youngsters arent good enough, and are no where near as good as you think they are, have seen have led to the very average side you have today. If you think the only difference between Wigan and Saints is structure and tactics then you really havent got a clue.

Whatever...

I was similarly mocked at this stage last season by all those wonderful blow-in-the-wind kneejerker Saints fans you respect so for suggesting we still had a top squad (better than yours) and had at least as good a chance of silverware last season as anyone else did, when that lot were all deriding our chances of making the top 8 or ever winning a game again. We turned you over twice in the playoffs even with a load of key players missing as I recall, and were only robbed of a GF win by cruelly-timed injuries at the end of the day, despite the fact that our coach at the time stands now revealed as a bit of a numpty.

Just imagine what those players could have done with a top coach directing them instead.... More of less the same players we have now in fact. Bring in Manu and Turner for Meli and Flannery as seems likely, swap Hohaia for a #7 (possible if the rumours are to be believed), find a decent prop or 2, and stick in a coach that will make the best of them all (and I still have my doubts over Brown) and the results could be frightening next season.

You are playing to the absolute supreme maximum of your capabilities right now whereas Saints are at 40% at best, and yet we still would likely have beaten you at LP with a competent referee, and had much the better of territory and possession against you on Saturday.

I was right last season and I am right now. You will live and learn that I and am rarely wrong. You may not know it yet, but you will....

And if you think the half-baked opinions of a bunch of knowledgeless knuckle-scraping mouth-breathers worries me even slightly then you need some serious reflection...

That picture says it better than words ever could. He really hasnt got a clue

So you're 2 props, a second rower, a winger, a half and a coach away from Wigan? Sounds like it's just our structures that are better.

Talent/ability is nothing without direction which is what a strong coaching set up brings. How do you learn/improve if nobody is feeding back to you on your performance?

hahahaha this is getting to funny to even be true, and no other saints fan is trying to help you as they also know your very deluded. just to remind you wigan have won over the last 2 seasons, league leaders trophy, grand final and also a challenge cup (something you just lost by alot better team!) what did saints players get? another runners up medal. last season you came up against a run down wigan team as it seemed maguire had hes eyes on the nrl and was to stuborn to give players a rest.

just to support my argument even more your so called better young players lost ROGUES knows how many times to our academy im guessing they was also just better coached :S?

you failed to come up with any half decent argument to as why you think saints players are naturally better other than some heavily biased comparisions.

How would you know apart from watching on t.v.

if this is general saints fans consensus then welcome to another 5 years.

no wigan player in the front row? in an area we dominate in now? picking wilkin and clough ahead of HH? Honestly? Wilkin must be SLs currently most overrated player and you admit yourself Clough hasnt been better than ok for a while now. anyway, thought makinson, the hindley boy, was very good. still wouldnt swap charnley or richards mind.

i have actually been unkind to the lad in my previous posts i would have him when pat retires he does have great potential and i think he will have a great career in superleague.

yeah he has a lot of talent and is/was a big wiganer - may have got the sean long bug of hating wigan mind by now - but talented for sure.

I just find it funny how he is picking his team 'not on current form'.

How else is there a good way to pick it?

You know, Karl Price is the best winger in SL, he's just been in crap form all of his career.




Being serious now, the only Saints players that I'd pick in our match day 17 at present would be Roby, Soliola and Puletua. And even then I'd have Soliola and TP starting from the interchange bench.

Do get real... Let's just wait and see what happens next season, shall we?

I'm a Saints supporter and I think he's right.

"Form is temporary, class is permanent" I believe a wise man once said...

Hang on a second here. With the exception of Tomkins and Roby there is not that much difference between the various players. Anybody suggesting that, say, Mossop is significantly better than, say, Soliola needs to review their assessment criteria. Yes, you can suggest that one may have an edge on another but from where I'm sat there isn't that much difference between the two in terms of contribution. There might be the odd player who is better than another, however it's hardly the leap that some appear to be suggesting.

True - swap Lance for Finch and I reckon Saints may well have won that game.

Hopefully the bluntness of the performance will force a bit of a reshuffle from Rush/KC as I don't think Lance/Lomax will get us over the line in big games. We need to find the right halves combination and my personal opinion is that the only "right" halves combination at Saints will have Gaskell in it. For me, he is the only natural half back in the squad.

The big decisions are who plays alongside him and at full back.

If we are going to go back to using Gaskell in the halves then we will need to retain Wello at fullback because he was assisting Lomaskell last season. He will still be needed in the same role this season.

Given that we have now been dumped out of the Cup, I think we should just revert to the arrangement that worked well last year: Lomax and Gaskell in the halves, with Wello as fullback and hoping that Laffranchi takes up the mantle in the forwards (in terms of leadership I mean) since he has the most experience there and doesn't appear to be as injury prone as TP.

We should then stick with that. It will require proper coaching from our current regime as both Lomax and Gaskell still need that kind of input.

I would also ensure that Makinson is in the starting 17 every week as he needs regular game time to continue his own development and he is definitely a young player worth developing.

However, I don't expect anything to change.

Doesn't matter what we do with the ball if our defence is going to be without the bite that a champion side needs. Come on Nathan. Win that Challenge Cup then pop over here for the play off run.

I remember going to a wigan saints match about 5 or 6 years ago at the JJB as it was then. Saints were the best team in the league at the time. I remember, before kick off watching the two teams warming up and my uncle turned to me and said "We're going get battered today." Deep down I knew he was right. You were miles ahead of us at the time, and just competing with you was hard enough with the likes of Sculthorpe, Long, Cunningham, that aussie centre (can't think of his name), etc, etc.

Yes, we may have got close and even won the odd game, but you were far better than us. We are in front of you ATM, admittedly not by that much, but any saints fans trying to pretend otherwise is seriously in denial. (Northampton saint - seriously you would have more saints players in a combined side than Wigan at this moment in time.)

We were very poor on sat as were you, but I think we won at a canter really. I didn't go as I was on hol and only watched it on TV last night (without knowing the score) and at no time was I remotely worried which felt really strange. This is a Wigan fans point of view and you may not like it, but that is how I view it.

Thoughts?

Think you need to listen to Saddened a bit more cos his pessimistic view isn't that far off.