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| Quote ="LFC Saint"Do not agree 3k vs Bradford for a do or die game is shocking. Especially when Bradford took quite a lot of support. There chairman constantly getting into arguments on twitter and admitting he will break the cap. All good and we'll winning a few games but they couldn't do it with the games that matterd. If saints win nothing this year do you look back and say well at least we won Wigan and Leeds in pointless games. The team itself is constantly playing with a certain attitude that's resulting in plenty of bans. Every time I watch them there's at least one punch up. The club needs to lose its billy big attitude and fast'"
They got over 6k for the Challenge Cup game against Salford and took a load to Wakefield and Warrington which shows that they can and would pull a crowd in Super League.
It's all just fizzled out for them this season and they (team and fans) must have felt pretty deflated by the middle 8's. Hence the poor attendance.
And I don't blame the players, chairman or the fans to be honest. They should be allowed to break the salary cap. It's incredibly unfair that the Super League clubs get twice the salary cap than the Championship clubs, meaning that the likes of Wakefield can be turd through the regular season knowing they can pick up a few big signings like Locke (signing then specifically for the middle 8's to then let them go when the job is done) before the middle 8's thus making it almost impossible to compete with them.
It all needs sorting out. Leigh, Halifax, Bradford, Sheffield and even Fev could have easily mixed it with the bottom half SL clubs during the regular season.
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| Quote ="Twentyman"They got over 6k for the Challenge Cup game against Salford and took a load to Wakefield and Warrington which shows that they can and would pull a crowd in Super League.
It's all just fizzled out for them this season and they (team and fans) must have felt pretty deflated by the middle 8's. Hence the poor attendance.
And I don't blame the players, chairman or the fans to be honest. They should be allowed to break the salary cap. It's incredibly unfair that the Super League clubs get twice the salary cap than the Championship clubs, meaning that the likes of Wakefield can be turd through the regular season knowing they can pick up a few big signings like Locke (signing then specifically for the middle 8's to then let them go when the job is done) before the middle 8's thus making it almost impossible to compete with them.
It all needs sorting out. Leigh, Halifax, Bradford, Sheffield and even Fev could have easily mixed it with the bottom half SL clubs during the regular season.'"
The cap is 1m (plus benefits that the championship clubs can exploit) vs 1.65m for SL clubs(with benefits the lower teams probably can't exploit). The gap really isn't that big, especially considering the majority of the lower SL teams aren't spending up to the cap...
As for mid season signings - how is Leigh signing Higham and Hock any different to Wakefield signing Locke? It happened earlier in the season (whose to say Locke wouldn't of signed for Wakefield earlier if he were available?) but all mentioned signings were for 1 purpose ...
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| Quote ="Twentyman"It all needs sorting out. Leigh, Halifax, Bradford, Sheffield and even Fev could have easily mixed it with the bottom half SL clubs during the regular season.'"
What makes you say that? Out of those clubs only Leigh made any headway in the cup.
FWIW I think Leigh have suffered from having the quality of personnel to allow them to play a reckless, cavalier style of rugby throughout the Championship season. They've been able to take undue risks all year because their opposition haven't been strong enough to punish them when those risks backfired. They then haven't been able to adapt their game to playing at a higher standard on a weekly basis, where a smarter approach to the game is required.
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| Quote ="Magic Superbeetle"The cap is 1m (plus benefits that the championship clubs can exploit) vs 1.65m for SL clubs(with benefits the lower teams probably can't exploit). The gap really isn't that big, especially considering the majority of the lower SL teams aren't spending up to the cap...
As for mid season signings - how is Leigh signing Higham and Hock any different to Wakefield signing Locke? It happened earlier in the season (whose to say Locke wouldn't of signed for Wakefield earlier if he were available?) but all mentioned signings were for 1 purpose ...'"
The difference between able to spend £650,000 or not is pretty big mate, especially for a team in the championship with ambitions. That could be the difference between have a quality pair of halfbacks and a fullback or even more than that. It's a lot of money.
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| Quote ="Twentyman"The difference between able to spend £650,000 or not is pretty big mate, especially for a team in the championship with ambitions. That could be the difference between have a quality pair of halfbacks and a fullback or even more than that. It's a lot of money.'"
But it's not 650k - iirc only Salford are spending up to the SL cap in the middle 8s and the others are 1.2m - 1.5m. Then consider the fact that Leigh's (for example) homegrown players (Higham and Ridyard jump out) only count for 40k on the cap your looking at a difference as low as 50k (if at all) for a 25 man squad.
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| Quote ="Dux"What makes you say that? Out of those clubs only Leigh made any headway in the cup.
FWIW I think Leigh have suffered from having the quality of personnel to allow them to play a reckless, cavalier style of rugby throughout the Championship season. They've been able to take undue risks all year because their opposition haven't been strong enough to punish them when those risks backfired. They then haven't been able to adapt their game to playing at a higher standard on a weekly basis, where a smarter approach to the game is required.'"
Fev were incredibly unlucky against the Catalans in France. They were missing several players and got pipped by a few points (37-34) Batley 'almost' won against Widnes (26-22). Bradford got beat by the finalists 50-30. Sheffield got beat against Hull I think 30 odd 12. Halifax admittedly took a beating off Wakefield but my point is, they were competitive scorelines. They weren't 30,40+ margin tonkings.
That salary cap difference does make the difference.
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| Quote ="Magic Superbeetle"But it's not 650k - iirc only Salford are spending up to the SL cap in the middle 8s and the others are 1.2m - 1.5m. Then consider the fact that Leigh's (for example) homegrown players (Higham and Ridyard jump out) only count for 40k on the cap your looking at a difference as low as 50k (if at all) for a 25 man squad.'"
Ok mate, you're clearly more clued up on this than me, however, it's still a difference isn't it? It's not the same...8 teams thrown together but 4 of them are allowed to spend over half a million more. That's not a level playing field.
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| Quote ="Twentyman"Ok mate, you're clearly more clued up on this than me, however, it's still a difference isn't it? It's not the same...8 teams thrown together but 4 of them are allowed to spend over half a million more. That's not a level playing field.'"
Saints not being able to play Lomax this week is a bigger hamstring to the squad than the championship clubs COULD have. If SC were the sole factor, Oldham wouldn't have won promotion in the bottom 8s.
The championship clubs have 2 options, flood their team with unsuccessful SL players, and get found out against actual SL teams - or develop their own, and get handsome bonuses from it, and build promotion from the bottom up. The first option was the way of 1 up 1 down and created some of the least competitive teams SL has seen.
I'd suspect you could fit the Saints/ Wigan squads into a championship salary cap (maybe losing one).
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| It should be done like football! If Leigh can afford to we should be able to spend sl cap as we are expected too match the sl teams too get promoted! I love the new system I just think it needs a transfer window like football were it is a level playing field! I Think there is a buzz around rugby league. I'm not one of these for excuses if we were good enough we would go up!
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| Quote ="oggy123"It should be done like football! If Leigh can afford to we should be able to spend sl cap as we are expected too match the sl teams too get promoted! I love the new system I just think it needs a transfer window like football were it is a level playing field! I Think there is a buzz around rugby league. I'm not one of these for excuses if we were good enough we would go up!'"
Is promotion to SL the goal, or being competitive in SL when you enter the competition?
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| Surely any sportsman will know the aim is too be the best! Get up and stay up and build on that! I know Beaumont can be a loudmouth but he will put he's money were is mouth is and at times this year the crowds have been very good for were we are and as shown against wire too take nearly 4k away is a good effort and the teams like yourselves will bring the crowds
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| Quote ="oggy123"It should be done like football! If Leigh can afford to we should be able to spend sl cap as we are expected too match the sl teams too get promoted! I love the new system I just think it needs a transfer window like football were it is a level playing field! I Think there is a buzz around rugby league. I'm not one of these for excuses if we were good enough we would go up!'"
I definitely agree that a much earlier transfer deadline is needed - it should be well before it's clear who is going to be in the middle 8.
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| Quote ="Dux"I definitely agree that a much earlier transfer deadline is needed - it should be well before it's clear who is going to be in the middle 8.'"
Even that would help, mate. I think the concept of the middle 8's is just brilliant but it has failed badly IMO. I know others disagree and that's fair enough but the difference in what you're allowed to spend on the SC and the reason you mention in the quote above as meant that it's not a level playing field. Maybe change the structure and make it a middle 6 or even a 4 and play each other twice.
Magic Superbeetle asked about whether getting in SL was the goal or being competitive. I'd ask whether fans are happy with Wakefield being incredibly poor for 20 odd rounds, losing nearly all the games staying up, whilst Leigh who are genuinely ambitious, along with Bradford winning nearly all of there's and being stuck in the Championship.
Leigh and Bradford IMO would be far far more competitive and ambitious than just taking a pummelling every week and buying a few stars before the middle 8's.
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| In regard to the crowds, I remember similar things being said about Leigh crowds being massive in SL before they came up last time. They weren't when they got there though, so I wouldn't presume that they would be if they got promoted again certainly not any bigger than any current SL team.
I think the issue with the middle 8's has been touched on here and also was stated by a Bradford fan I know prior to the season starting. The Championship teams have all had fairly easy games where they've been able to pick up bad habits and still win. The SL teams don't have that luxury, bad habits will be punished, so they've got a double advantage, bigger cap (meaning in theory better players) and also more battle hardened players in crunch games.
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| Quote ="Twentyman"
Magic Superbeetle asked about whether getting in SL was the goal or being competitive. I'd ask whether fans are happy with Wakefield being incredibly poor for 20 odd rounds, losing nearly all the games staying up, whilst Leigh who are genuinely ambitious, along with Bradford winning nearly all of there's and being stuck in the Championship.
'"
What annoyed me was Wakefield signing up quite a few players prior to the middle 8's, all legal but doesn't seem right. Maybe the championship sides should be allowed extra spending powers prior to the middle 8's for the sake of parity.
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| Quote ="Judder Man"What annoyed me was Wakefield signing up quite a few players prior to the middle 8's, all legal but doesn't seem right. Maybe the championship sides should be allowed extra spending powers prior to the middle 8's for the sake of parity.'"
They were and Leigh used them to the full. Wakefield signed a few, but they also released players previous to that.
Ultimately it comes down to the disparity of the system. The SL clubs in the middle 8s are allowed to spend more because of the fact they were in SL and not the Championship. They can't responsibly do anything about that as if you allow Championship clubs to spend more and they don't get promoted there is a real risk of bankruptcy, which would be twice in about three years for Leigh. (Beaumont is looking as likely to fail as Koukash)
The current 8s system is unfair on the Championship clubs. In reality it would take a ridiculously poor SL side to lose to a Championship side in that format.
But clubs like Leigh cannot moan about it as they campaigned for it and supported it when it was brought it in. They arrogantly believed they would walk it and haven't performed, even to the level of their peers. The best system is still franchising. That would reward the clubs with the best facilities, fan bases and league performances. Why they ever moved away from that is beyond me.
IMO SL should be:
2 x Expansion clubs (As they need protection as unfair to expect the same crowds etc as established clubs. London should IMO have been replaced by Toulouse a LONG time ago). If a London or Paris or Spanish or Italian franchise found a serious backer with a proper business plan and had community backing with long term potential for 10k crowds they should be allowed in)
8 x franchised clubs (And change them at a full seasons notice. The likes of Wakefield should not be in SL, no matter how you slice things. A franchising system now would remove them and add Leigh, without the need for them to spend irresponsibly. Now would have been the perfect time to remove Wakefield and Wigan as they don't own their own grounds. Wigan fans can't moan about that as they would have been relegated under the P&R system that year anyway, had they not cheated).
Long term Super League needs to go again. The Sky money unquestionably saved the sport, but it's now dying again. It needs to think bigger than a £1.6m cap, but can't currently without being irresponsible. It needs to get out there and sell itself. If a womens cricket Super league competition can attract bids for franchises of £2m per team per season (Mentioned on the radio recently) without any possibility of a paying crowd, why can't Super League attract some of the Indian, Chinese and Gulf money other sports seem to be able to?
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| Quote ="Saddened!"They were and Leigh used them to the full. Wakefield signed a few, but they also released players previous to that.
Ultimately it comes down to the disparity of the system. The SL clubs in the middle 8s are allowed to spend more because of the fact they were in SL and not the Championship. They can't responsibly do anything about that as if you allow Championship clubs to spend more and they don't get promoted there is a real risk of bankruptcy, which would be twice in about three years for Leigh. (Beaumont is looking as likely to fail as Koukash)
The current 8s system is unfair on the Championship clubs. In reality it would take a ridiculously poor SL side to lose to a Championship side in that format.
But clubs like Leigh cannot moan about it as they campaigned for it and supported it when it was brought it in. They arrogantly believed they would walk it and haven't performed, even to the level of their peers. The best system is still franchising. That would reward the clubs with the best facilities, fan bases and league performances. Why they ever moved away from that is beyond me.
IMO SL should be:
2 x Expansion clubs (As they need protection as unfair to expect the same crowds etc as established clubs. London should IMO have been replaced by Toulouse a LONG time ago). If a London or Paris or Spanish or Italian franchise found a serious backer with a proper business plan and had community backing with long term potential for 10k crowds they should be allowed in)
8 x franchised clubs (And change them at a full seasons notice. The likes of Wakefield should not be in SL, no matter how you slice things. A franchising system now would remove them and add Leigh, without the need for them to spend irresponsibly. Now would have been the perfect time to remove Wakefield and Wigan
as they don't own their own grounds. Wigan fans can't moan about that as they would have been relegated under the P&R system that year anyway, had they not cheated).
Long term Super League needs to go again. The Sky money unquestionably saved the sport, but it's now dying again. It needs to think bigger than a £1.6m cap, but can't currently without being irresponsible. It needs to get out there and sell itself. If a womens cricket Super league competition can attract bids for franchises of £2m per team per season (Mentioned on the radio recently) without any possibility of a paying crowd, why can't Super League attract some of the Indian, Chinese and Gulf money other sports seem to be able to?'"
Good post mate.
Can someone remind me of the negatives of relegation and promotion again?
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| Promotion and relegation will never happen again I don't think the rl have proved they don't like this as they can't control who goes up or comes down! As for the new system i think it is a good thing just needs tweaking! A club challenging for super league should be able too spend super league cap! It shouldn't matter too other teams wether Leigh can sustain it really! I'm all for risking it as there is plenty of reward! Id rather watch a team at the top level than a team stuck in the lower leagues playing kids
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| Quote ="oggy123"Promotion and relegation will never happen again I don't think the rl have proved they don't like this as they can't control who goes up or comes down! As for the new system i think it is a good thing just needs tweaking! A club challenging for super league should be able too spend super league cap! It shouldn't matter too other teams wether Leigh can sustain it really! I'm all for risking it as there is plenty of reward! Id rather watch a team at the top level than a team stuck in the lower leagues playing kids'"
When you say challenging for Super League every club will claim they are. I think it could work if a club will definitely qualify for the Middle 8s, so say there's 5 games left and Leigh are 11 points clear of 5th then yes they could spend up to the cap then if they could afford it. But with people wanting the deadline brought forward for signings then I doubt that this method would work.
Another way to try and bridge the gap would to use the funding a club receives for finishing wherever they do the previous season. Say you get £1m + whatever exemptions is the basic cap. But Leigh for finishing 6th in the middle 8s get 500k, Sheffield £450k for 7th (dont know the actual figures so random figure) they can use this on top of their cap if they can afford it to be used here. Obviously this wouldn't be able to occur for all clubs though. Say for example, Halifax are skint (no idea if they are) if they get the 500k if they can't afford it to spend it on players then they don't have to. So basically it would be at the clubs discretion on what they spend the staggered amounts on. But this would obviously mean there's no level playing field in the Championship as clubs would all be spending different amounts on the cap so would be harder for London etc to finish in the middle 8 positions.
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| Quote ="Judder Man"What annoyed me was Wakefield signing up quite a few players prior to the middle 8's.'"
Yes they did, but didn't Leigh bring in some big names as well after the start of the season?
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| Quote ="jaybs"Yes they did, but didn't Leigh bring in some big names as well after the start of the season?'"
This is what I actually said: What annoyed me was Wakefield signing up quite a few players prior to the middle 8's, =#FF0040all legal but doesn't seem right. You've edited my sentence by reducing its context for some reason.
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| Back to the original topic, young Percival is going nowhere and, as others have said looks to be a future international.
Just wish he was doing it with his hometown club.
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| Quote ="The Horses Mouth"Back to the original topic, young Percival is going nowhere and, as others have said looks to be a future international.
Just wish he was doing it with his hometown club.'"
Could say the same about your best player, Kevin Brown.
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| Good wins for Sheffield and Fax this weekend.
IMO the championship should be just full of the teams that meet the requirements for SL and then we can have proper promotion and relegation between SL and the Championship.
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| Quote ="Twentyman"Good wins for Sheffield and Fax this weekend.
IMO the championship should be just full of the teams that meet the requirements for SL and then we can have proper promotion and relegation between SL and the Championship.'"
Now we just need the funding. But that's controlled by SL clubs so can't see them voting for Christmas.
This is as close as it will get until clubs can pull in wider sponsorship and market the game outside the M62.
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