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| Poor Royce - there really is no way he can win here.
If Saints improve - it's because of KC & Rush.
If Saints get worse - we're still better off under KC & Rush because Royce would have made an even bigger mess.
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| Quote ="Mugwump"Poor Royce - there really is no way he can win here.
If Saints improve - it's because of KC & Rush.
If Saints get worse - we're still better off under KC & Rush because Royce would have made an even bigger mess.'"
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| Quote ="SomersetSaint"What amazes me is that a club like saints, with mickey poor attendances, can afford to consistently finish near the top of the table and get to finals. Compared to clubs like Wigan, Leeds, hull and Warrington with a sugar daddy, we have done remarkably well. I am amazed at dreamers who think we can magic players out of ruin air with very limited funds. Some people really do live in cloud cuckoo land.'"
Oh God yes - there are many, many, many of them on these boards....
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| Quote ="St pete"icon_thumb.gif'"
[iYAY! Let's turn ignorance into a virtue and have ourselves a big ol' hoedown![/i
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| Quote ="Mugwump"[iYAY! Let's turn ignorance into a virtue and have ourselves a big ol' hoedown![/i'"
No, lets all lose our sense of humour and take everything serious.
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| Brown needs to let the player know who the boss is the player have had to much power under potter and Simmons
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| Quote ="1984saints"Brown needs to let the player know who the boss is the player have had to much power under potter and Simmons'"
whats your evidence of this?
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| Quote ="Saint Simon"whats your evidence of this?'"
I just no fella
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| Quote ="1984saints"Brown needs to let the player know who the boss is the player have had to much power under potter and Simmons'"
I don't think Brown is sort of coach to take any crap, ask Trent barret.
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Quote saint at wire wrote:I don't think for a minute that we don't spend up to the cap, but you are ignoring up front cash fees including golden handshakes and transfer fees which we cannot afford. '"
Quote Mugwump"How do you know anyone else affords such?'"
Warrington and Hull to name two seem to be affording it at the moment with their benefactors. The SC isn't the b all and end all, there are other monetary considerations such as golden hello's paid into pension pots etc.
Quote QuoteBut the math isn't complicated 5 kids = 2 superstars in terms of salaries etc. The only way we could afford big signings would be to have a very thin squad in terms of no's and strength in depth. '"
Quote Well, the math certainly isn't complicated when you boil it down to the above. Whether this bears any relation to reality I have no idea. I mean, a "kid" can be 18 or he can be 21. I doubt 10 kids age 18 would add up to one superstar's wage. The truth is more complicated.'"
I have no problem with this observation; I was illustrating a point about the SC - you can either have a smaller no of superstars and a more strength in depth or more superstars and less able replacements (e.g. journeymen).
Quote QuoteIn previous years, we would not have coped with the loss of key players as well as we are doing now IMO.'"
Quote Which previous years? And in case you haven't realised we're not coping all that well now. '"
I did use IMO! But I think you will find we will cope OK tomorrow without Wilkin, Lomas, Makinson and Gaskell at least two can be classed automatic 1st choice. In the past we have struggled when Long and/or The king were out.
Quote QuoteMcManus warned only yesterday the perils of SL finances
www.sportinglife.com/rugbyleague ... ml&BID=480
I believe we were only 1 or 2 years away from beng a bradford basket case until the new stadium and the re-financing came along. IF we show a profit this year (the first in over 10 years?) he might loosen up the purse strings a bit.'"
Quote I'm perfectly well aware that SL's finances are worrying. But again - it is McManus who has driven this - not the fans. If we had money worries he could quite easily have come clean, publicly tightened the purse strings and the fans would be ok. Sure, you'd lose a few glory hunters and such but the core fan base - provided they aren't lied to - would be accepting.'"
The accounts are in the public domain and when they are released each year, there is a thread on here as well as lots of (largely negative) comments on sporting life and in league express. Admittedly McManus put a brave face on it but what else could he do? With our [uthen[/u crowds and an old stadium the writing was clearly on the wall.
The last three years losses were £449K, £862K & £1385K. It is not suprising we were not signing players on with big up front fees.
My real point is that this should now be behind us; The balance sheet has been restructured, the club refincned, all external debt paid off, crowds up around 40% (?) and catering and hospitality income way up.
I think you will see us "buying big" next year. Fingers crossed.
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Quote saint at wire wrote:I don't think for a minute that we don't spend up to the cap, but you are ignoring up front cash fees including golden handshakes and transfer fees which we cannot afford. '"
Quote Mugwump"How do you know anyone else affords such?'"
Warrington and Hull to name two seem to be affording it at the moment with their benefactors. The SC isn't the b all and end all, there are other monetary considerations such as golden hello's paid into pension pots etc.
Quote QuoteBut the math isn't complicated 5 kids = 2 superstars in terms of salaries etc. The only way we could afford big signings would be to have a very thin squad in terms of no's and strength in depth. '"
Quote Well, the math certainly isn't complicated when you boil it down to the above. Whether this bears any relation to reality I have no idea. I mean, a "kid" can be 18 or he can be 21. I doubt 10 kids age 18 would add up to one superstar's wage. The truth is more complicated.'"
I have no problem with this observation; I was illustrating a point about the SC - you can either have a smaller no of superstars and a more strength in depth or more superstars and less able replacements (e.g. journeymen).
Quote QuoteIn previous years, we would not have coped with the loss of key players as well as we are doing now IMO.'"
Quote Which previous years? And in case you haven't realised we're not coping all that well now. '"
I did use IMO! But I think you will find we will cope OK tomorrow without Wilkin, Lomas, Makinson and Gaskell at least two can be classed automatic 1st choice. In the past we have struggled when Long and/or The king were out.
Quote QuoteMcManus warned only yesterday the perils of SL finances
www.sportinglife.com/rugbyleague ... ml&BID=480
I believe we were only 1 or 2 years away from beng a bradford basket case until the new stadium and the re-financing came along. IF we show a profit this year (the first in over 10 years?) he might loosen up the purse strings a bit.'"
Quote I'm perfectly well aware that SL's finances are worrying. But again - it is McManus who has driven this - not the fans. If we had money worries he could quite easily have come clean, publicly tightened the purse strings and the fans would be ok. Sure, you'd lose a few glory hunters and such but the core fan base - provided they aren't lied to - would be accepting.'"
The accounts are in the public domain and when they are released each year, there is a thread on here as well as lots of (largely negative) comments on sporting life and in league express. Admittedly McManus put a brave face on it but what else could he do? With our [uthen[/u crowds and an old stadium the writing was clearly on the wall.
The last three years losses were £449K, £862K & £1385K. It is not suprising we were not signing players on with big up front fees.
My real point is that this should now be behind us; The balance sheet has been restructured, the club refincned, all external debt paid off, crowds up around 40% (?) and catering and hospitality income way up.
I think you will see us "buying big" next year. Fingers crossed.
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| Quote ="saint at wire"The accounts are in the public domain and when they are released each year, there is a thread on here as well as lots of (largely negative) comments on sporting life and in league express. Admittedly McManus put a brave face on it but what else could he do? With our [uthen[/u crowds and an old stadium the writing was clearly on the wall.
The last three years losses were £449K, £862K & £1385K. It is not suprising we were not signing players on with big up front fees.'"
I'm perfectly aware of Saints financial position. It doesn't take a genius to realise without McManus and company the writing is on the wall. But none of this is relevant to the contradiction posed by our obvious lack of strength and McManus repeatedly claiming we are maxed out on the cap. If we take McManus at face value then it raises important questions about the wisdom of our recruitment dealings (or lack thereof).
Quote My real point is that this should now be behind us; The balance sheet has been restructured, the club refincned, all external debt paid off, crowds up around 40% (?) and catering and hospitality income way up.
I think you will see us "buying big" next year. Fingers crossed.'"
Clubs are always "buying big" next season. Haven't you heard? We've got Jamie Lyon's signature in the bag.
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| Nice article. Looking forward to him arriving. Some big recruitment decisions to be made too
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| Just had a look at the heritage site, it's a great site.
Just comparing our starting 17 against Leeds a few weeks back which is probably our best line up bar sia, and our starting 17 in the GF in 2006.
FB : Wellens - Wellens
Wing: Meli - Meli
Wing: Ade - Ade
Centre: Lyon - Shenton
Centre: Talau- Wheeler
SO: Pryce - Lance
SH: Long - Lomax
Prop: Cayless - Perry
prop: Anderson - La franki
Hooker: kerion - Roby
SR: Wilkin - Wilkin
SR: Gilmore - Flannery
LF: Hooper - TP
Sub:
Roby - LMS
Bennett - Mark Flanaghan
Graham - Clough
Fasavalu - Megennis
You have to say man for man, bar bennett and flanaghan the team from 2006 was better.
In both years we had 6 overseas players.
5 home grown in 2006.
6 home grown in 2012.
So in terms of the best starting 17 we can put out, it's not because we are full of homegrown players, or because we had more overseas players.
If you asked me what is the difference, it was that in 2006 we had players at their peak, with some new talent like graham and Roby.
In 2012 we have players either full of potential or past their peak. We have one or 2 who you could say are at their peak or close to it, like Roby, Sia maybe TP if he was not injured.
I think we are a team in transition and 2014 will be the year we are out of transition as there are 7 big name contracts up in 2013. Along with any one year deals given out this year.
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| 3 Priorities?
in no order
1) A stiffer, quicker defensive line.
Whilst we have games where the line seems to hold, I think we've been guilty of moving up too slow in order to hold the shape. Whilst this stops large amounts of missed tackles, it allows the opposition to gain territory and momentum too easily.
2) Smarter rugby.
Since Potter took over, we've had periods where we've looked lost on the last tackle. We've also been too one dimensional with our focus on Roby around the ruck, which has made us more suseptable to be shut down by a smart defence.
When I watched Hudds tear up Cas a couple of weeks ago, the variety of attacking plays was outstanding.
3)Belief (Arrogance)
I'd like to see Saints take to the feild with a bit of swagger, a bit of "I don't care you you are, I'm going to t**t you all the same."
Sometimes we just look like rabbits in the headlights.
I don't think we've got the best 17 in the league, but I do think we've got a 17 that the best coach in the League could win trophies with. Whether that's Brown, we'll have to wait and see.
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| Smart half-back, strike centre, big prop (preferably 2.)
Dureau is off-contract and would be a revelation, know we would have to move some people around to make it happen and it's highly unlikely but what a signing he would be.
Would be happy with a couple of props from the O.O.C. list, Jake Emmitt would be ok. Don't know what's available in the NRL.
No idea for a centre, there's seemingly nothing available.
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| Quote ="(Saint)"Smart half-back, strike centre, big prop (preferably 2.)
Dureau is off-contract and would be a revelation, know we would have to move some people around to make it happen and it's highly unlikely but what a signing he would be.
Would be happy with a couple of props from the O.O.C. list, Jake Emmitt would be ok. Don't know what's available in the NRL.
No idea for a centre, there's seemingly nothing available.'"
Joe Arundel is available, if he's not already signed for Hull as is rumoured. There are plenty of young, talented British players around. It's time Saints got back to at least trying to sign them. Sargison at London, Arundell, John Bateman. All young, talented British players we could realistically have signed.
Dureau is rumoured to be Wigan bound if he doesn't decide to stay on at Catalans. We should move heaven and earth to sign him, but I suspect we won't bother.
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| I'm looking forward to seeing Brown's recruitment. He has taken some great young talent to Huddderfield like George, Eden, Patrick, Lunt and McGilvray. He seemed to find them from nowhere and seems pretty good in picking out the best positions for them. The conditioners at Huddersfield look good so I hope he can bring a bit of that.
When is Broughton OOC at Salford? he would be a good replacement for Meli. I'd also have a go at getting Tom Burgess. It will be interesting who Brown will go for when we have a quota space available he took Luke O'Donnell to Huddersfield and when fit he is a great player and would like him at Saints.
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| Quote ="TheVee"When is Broughton OOC at Salford? he would be a good replacement for Meli.'" Broughton would make me smile if we got him. He's looked very good when I've seen him, even if that's not very often in the grand scheme of things.
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| Quote ="Offside Monkey"Broughton would make me smile if we got him. He's looked very good when I've seen him, even if that's not very often in the grand scheme of things.'"
I'd be happy with him. he's pretty big and won fastest man in Superleague and has scored something like 30 tries in 54 appearances for Salford.
Dan Sarginson would be a really good addition to our team IMO.
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| I've always liked the look of JordanTurner, who seems to be finding his niche as a centre. Well worth a punt, I'd say. He might just be happy to come back over the pennines.
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| Quote ="Dux"I've always liked the look of JordanTurner, who seems to be finding his niche as a centre. Well worth a punt, I'd say. He might just be happy to come back over the pennines.'"
Where's he from?
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| Hull IIRC. went full length against us and then Hull KR on Good Friday but I expect Hull to tie him down long term.
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| Born in Oldham and came through the Salford youth system.
Personally I'd sign Turner, Broughton, Sargison and Arundell and release Gardner, Meli, Wellens and Shenton.
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| Quote ="Saddened!"Born in Oldham and came through the Salford youth system.
Personally I'd sign Turner, Broughton, Sargison and Arundell and release Gardner, Meli, Wellens and Shenton.'"
I was with you up until Shenton which i'm still unsure about. If he can re-gain his defence from last year which was solid i'd be happy to keep him but if his injury has took too much out of him and this Shenton is here to stay he has to go.
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