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| Quote ="Northampton_Saint"Not necessarily - the premier league cashcow getting carted off to Maccie D's might be a major blow to Latics, but there's no reason at all that they couldn't still do financially quite nicely in the Championship or even League 1 - revenue streams in footie are much bigger even at the lower league levels than Superleague could ever dream of. MK Dons run a stadium about the same size as the Piedome in League 1 on less than 9K a game for instance.'"
I think though that the latics without the massive tv revenue coming from Sky would surely struggle even in the championship. They would lose all their premier league class players, they would be playing in front of home crowds of probably 5-6k. There crowds are low even in the premiership and they are bolstered by good travelling supports.
Going back to the topic financially from a company's perspective, share capital is much more advantageous than bank loans. We will save the monthly interest payments and there will be no obligation to pay the capital. The shareholders will be able to sell their shares to other investors if there is a market for the shares.
Realistically the directors have more or less pumped huge sums of money into the club with no realistic expectation of ever getting it back. For that we must be truly thankful and appreciate what a lucky club we are. If we can grow the revenues of the club with ticket sales and hospitality etc we are in a fantastic position going forward. I would go as far as to say the future looks very bright.
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| Quote ="glasgowsaint"Realistically the directors have more or less pumped huge sums of money into the club with no realistic expectation of ever getting it back. For that we must be truly thankful and appreciate what a lucky club we are. If we can grow the revenues of the club with ticket sales and hospitality etc we are in a fantastic position going forward. I would go as far as to say the future looks very bright.'"
This all depends whether future profits generated by the stadium (which everybody here seems to be expecting) are re-invested into the club or whether the directors of the company decide to pay dividends to shareholders as per the normal business community.
I think it is un-heard of for a rugby league club to pay dividends however if the investors here wish to get a return they can get one by taking profits made by the club for themselves. Obviously other shareholders benefit as well bit by creating more shares for themselves then they get a bigger slice of the case.
When Warrington moved into their new stadium I believe that some of the existing shareholders let it be known that they would be looking to utilise the stadium to generate profits to provide dividends as a return on their investment into the previous black-hole of a rugby club unless somebody paid them for their price for their shares. Current owners of Warrington have confirmed that all profits made by Warrington will be re-invested into the club.
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| Quote ="Saint from Prestwich"we had negative net worth of £1.46m at 31 Oct 2010 having incurred losses of over £2m in the two years 2009 and 2010.
The balance sheet at 31 Oct 2011 will make very interesting reading but it won't come into the public domain until next year.'"
By 31st we will have taken possession of a £20 million stadium, that should up our net worth a touch
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"That was the point I made, if he is that rich then it isn't a problem to him. The more people we can get to invest in the game the better, but the terms need to be right.
One of the problems that occurred at Wigan was that at least one of the directors decided to "call in" his loan.'"
I think we can call it a contribution more than a loan. A quick bit of google research pulls up that the company Mike Coleman runs with his business partner Doug King is currently controlling $2.3Billon worth of assets. Somebody that runs a company that size surely must have a substanstial amount to blow for pleasure purposes.
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| Looking good for a new Saints legacy over the next few years. We have the facilities now, we have the youngsters coming through, and we have some good signings coming over. We just have to get the GF hoodoo of our backs now, and I could see this club becoming dominant once again.
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| Quote ="Carlos Alberto"Looking good for a new Saints legacy over the next few years. We have the facilities now, we have the youngsters coming through, and we have some good signings coming over. We just have to get the GF hoodoo of our backs now, and I could see this club becoming dominant once again.'"
We are missing the top level players that we always had. Long, Sculthorpe, Cunningham, Lyon etc were all a level above their peers when we won Grand Finals. We don't have that anymore.
I'm not saying trophies are an impossibility, but domination is not possible with the squad we'll have next year.
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| Quote ="Saddened!"We are missing the top level players that we always had. Long, Sculthorpe, Cunningham, Lyon etc were all a level above their peers when we won Grand Finals. We don't have that anymore..'"
You're assuming we won't have top level players ever again Saddened. The beauty about having very young players is that they could be top level but we don't know it yet because they are noobs. And we have some talent in the junior ranks too. I think it's all quite exciting.
This year we were the closest we have been in five to winning the GF, with injuries undoing us just as they have done all season. Hopefully our conditioning regime will improve next season so that we can field a strong team for the majority of games. I wouldn't be so quick to write us off.
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| A Quote ="SaintsFan"You're assuming we won't have top level players ever again Saddened. The beauty about having very young players is that they could be top level but we don't know it yet because they are noobs. And we have some talent in the junior ranks too. I think it's all quite exciting.
This year we were the closest we have been in five to winning the zGF, with injuries undoing us just as they have done all season. Hopefully our conditioning regime will improve next season so that we can field a strong team for the majority of games. I wouldn't be so quick to write us off.'"
I am on a three year streak now in my season predictions. People think I'm slightly negative but I'm consistently right.
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| Quote ="Saddened!"AI am on a three year streak now in my season predictions. People think I'm slightly negative but I'm consistently right.'"
Depends on what prediction you are refering to. I seam to recall you saying we would not make top three and that we would not make the GF. And that next season we'll be outside the top four. Not sure what your prediction was for CC.
If the prediction you are quoting is simply that we wont win the GF. Thats not exactly tipping against the odds. Most teams wont win the GF.
But in terms of other predictions made I think you were on shall we say the glass half empty side of the fence.
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| Quote ="Saddened!"I'm slightly negative
'"
No Sherlock
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| Quote ="PrestonSaint"I think we can call it a contribution more than a loan. A quick bit of google research pulls up that the company Mike Coleman runs with his business partner Doug King is currently controlling $2.3Billon worth of assets. Somebody that runs a company that size surely must have a substanstial amount to blow for pleasure purposes.'"
I don't think he has blown it at all. He is a fantastic saints fan but he hasn't donated £6M for no return. He has a loan which is likely to be very favourable to Saints but it will not be interest free. He also has a £3M bond which will have a coupon/interest rate - again probably very low but he has the option at some stage to convert this into shares.
In 2010, as a measure of their commitment to Saints some £725K of directors loans were converted to shares at a value of £15.15 per share and assuming the most recent £850K loan was converted at the same rate this would mean 56,105 new shares with the balance to share premium, giving a current share capital of 331,938.
If Mike Coleman is able to convert at the same conversion rate is he could end up the proud owner of an additional 198,000 shares to go with 4950 shares he is getting from his part in the directors' loan conversions. If this is the scenario he is on tract to own around 38.3% which given his commitment he would fully deserve!
The other good thing would be that as the biggest shareholder (Mac and family would be diluted to around 15% of the club) Mike Coleman unlikely to want to call in his £3M loan as would owe it largely to himself.
I would also like to make the point that we should also thank the other directors who converted their loans to shares; Fergus Lyons, Andrew Bell and Kevin Marren.
One other thing is the questions earlier in this thread about whether this new debt is additional or replacement, the answer appears to be without much doubt that it is replacing existing debt. This is shown as £850K of directors debt is being converted into shares and Mac's statement that there will be NO bank debt. The ONLY other debt is the remains of an old brewery loan of only £8K.
It does transform our balance sheet as will the stadium asset. This fantastic gesture by Mike Coleman and his fellow directors gives the club real stability which few if any other clubs have.
It s now up to Saints fans everywhere to repay this vote of confidence by buying season tickets where they can and for those who can't coming ot as many home games as possible.
[size=200COYS !!![/size
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| Who owns the stadium? If its you why do you need a 999 year lease on it?
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| Quote ="MrPhilb"Who owns the stadium? If its you why do you need a 999 year lease on it?'"
oh god, not again! google "leasehold"
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"Wigan RL has a fixed agreement in place (it's either a 25 or 50 year, it wasn't brought up at this years shareholders meeting) whereby they pay 10% of their gate receipts for the use of the stadium, but things like pitch maintenance & renovation, floodlight costs etc, are covered in that 10% figure.
As a cost based model it is a superb agreement, but as a revenue based model we lose out on things like non matchday opportunities.
Hence Wigan RL diversification and investment into other areas, which will become apparent in the next year or so.'"
selling players to RU doesnt count as diversification.
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| Quote ="MrPhilb"Who owns the stadium? If its you why do you need a 999 year lease on it?'"
That's about the land and not the stadium. Saints own the stadium; the land is leasehold. There is nothing unusual about that.
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"That's about the land and not the stadium. Saints own the stadium; the land is leasehold. There is nothing unusual about that.'"
We own our workplace on a 100 year leasehold, as does the rest of the industrial estate we're on. As you say, not unusual these days.
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| 999 years will not worry any of us LOL, I was quite happy to accept a 99 year lease myself.
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| My Mrs has just sold a leasehold flat. She'll be most disappointed to learn she didn't actually own it and will have to pay a couple of hundred grand back.
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| Quote ="jaybs"999 years will not worry any of us LOL, I was quite happy to accept a 99 year lease myself.'"
You a Saints fan again?
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| Quote ="No1 Saint"You a Saints fan again?'"
Yeah I was thinking that as well,thought he was a Quins/Broncos fan.
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| Quote ="Saddened!"icon_lol.gif
We are missing the top level players that we always had. Long, Sculthorpe, Cunningham, Lyon etc were all a level above their peers when we won Grand Finals. We don't have that anymore.
I'm not saying trophies are an impossibility, but domination is not possible with the squad we'll have next year.'"
Those kinds of players are rarely around in such abundance these days, certainly all in the same team.
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| Quote ="Tony Stark"Those kinds of players are rarely around in such abundance these days, certainly all in the same team.'"
Which also supports my view that we're not in a position to dominate anything. The increase in both the NRL and Union caps means that the majority of the elite British players will now be playing the peaks of their careers in one of those competitions. We've seen a dumbing down and levelling off in Super League recently. So how does one club step up and dominate? You could argue Leeds are dominant, but as Sinfield, Peacock and Burrow retire you could also argue their time is up.
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| My understanding was that a lot of the grants we got for the stadium were only payable on the completion of the stadium (which is likely to be quite soon) to prevent anyone running off with the money and not delivering.
The club has needed to take out a "bridging loan" to cover the debt between the stadium payment and the payment of the grants. This could have something to do with this or maybe not. But I thought it was worth a mension. Sorry if this has been said before.
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"My Mrs has just sold a leasehold flat. She'll be most disappointed to learn she didn't actually own it and will have to pay a couple of hundred grand back.'"
No she hasn't. She has just sold on the rights under the lease not the property itself.
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| Quote ="Stinky Turner"No she hasn't. She has just sold on the rights under the lease not the property itself.'"
Well, I need to tell my parents that because they were convinced they bought the house they have been living in for 25 years. According to their solicitor they had bought it anyway and indeed are free to sell it as their own property. But there is an annual £1 rental to pay to a landlord for the land.
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