No one is saying we're underperforming though, just that Saints aren't and haven't been trying hard enough to build a squad capable of winning trophies. We'll still be discussing how we just need one or two players when we've past the 10 years without a trophy mark.

Well I see Wigan got beaten by the wire tonight by even more than we did, so should they also be discussing a clear out.

6 years without a trophy is not what we want obviously, but are we not trying hard enough? I'll agree we have got things wrong, but I don't see that as a lack of trying, just a lack of getting it right for the very very top of our sport. If we where not trying, why would we panic by Lance?

Surely if we where not trying we would have just said Lomax and Gaskell are doing ok lets not bother.

I'll say it again - In the last 2 years we've:

[listWon a bidding war for the current 1st choice GB centre
Signed an Ossie international prop
Signed an Ossie international 2nd row
Signed NZ's World-Cup winning full-back
Re-signed TP despite determined competition from money-no-object Wire
Re-signed Sia on a long contract against competition from money-no-object NRL clubs
Signed probably the best 2nd row in the country over the last few seasons
Offered Eastmond the same money as a money-no-object RU club[/list:u

If that's "a lack of ambition" and "settling for mediocrity" then FFS I hope Saints and Big Mac and co. continue being similarly "unambitious" for at least the next 20 years. "Lack of ambition" for me all the way, please.

We cannot compete with Wire and their accountants in raw financial terms. Nobody can. You're an utter idiot if you think that we realistically could, or that we should be attempting to do so. We are doing pretty bloody well compared to the rest of the league thank you very much.

Please don't talk sense, the doom and gloom merchants will bust a blood vessel. It really doesn't suit their agendas to even consider any of the points that you have raised.

Do you think replacing James graham with a average NRL backrow was good recruitment?

Do you think signing a NRL fullback in lance hohaia to play at stand off is good recruitment?

Do you think never replacing centres is good recruitment? We've played with one centre since willie talau went, we've had wheeler, flannery, jones, Meli all cover there and non have made any real impact!

When McManus publicly told us we will have a team to grace the new stadium, did you think the 3 we brought in graced the stadium?

Also, the retention is shocking

If nobody better was on the market at the time that didn't come with a transfer fee, then quite possibly. I think he's been a good signing though probably not the bullocking prop we need.



Nope - desperation signing but understandable given that we were suddenly faced with no #6 or #7 for this season at the start of last (a position that you can rightly argue was down to bad judgement on Saints part with Pryce and Eastmond's contracts). He was simply the best player on the market that had ever worn a #6 on his back at the time. You can argue that Saints had little choice but to gamble on him. A gamble that has spectacularly failed so far....



Replacing them with what? Who's been on the market without a transfer fee involved since Talua left that was any better than other players we had at the club at the time? Shenton - signed him. That's more or less it...



We're not discussing the quality of decision making in recruitment, much of which has indeed not been great (but I think still understandable given circumstances at the time). We're discussing the preposterous allegations of a "lack of ambition" on Saints' behalf. Again - you can with some justification make an argument over the quality of some of Saints' recruitment. There is no way whatsover you can question the ambition of it.

I've got problem with our retention/recruitment for few years now and IMO the lack of and in some cases poor recruitment has cist us grand final wins.

I think the club has lost some ambition, no matter what sport it is, teams need to build on success and not just sit back and stay satisfied, we should have been looking to replace scully, long, KC, gidley etc nearer the time and not waiting until they was finished and start panicking.

When you consider we lost eastmond, graham, Moore and pryce last year who was big big earners and replaced them with hohaia, Laffranchi and flanaghan then IMO that shows signs of lack of ambition and also signs of doing it on the cheap.

From what I can remember, the money behind our board eclipses the money SJM brings to the Warrington table. We have some very rich men on the board.

I think they are more prepared to splash the cash on players more than our board.

When was the last time we paid for a player?

Love Warrington or hate them, they ate a club with ambition.

[u[iWith who?[/i[/u

Warrington's remarkable salary-cap handling apart, it is utterly impossible for any SL club to have big-money players on the field and similar quality younger replacements in the reserves as well. Where are Leeds' ready-made replacements for Sinfield, Webb, McGuire, Burrow, Peacock in their squad now all lined up to spring seamlessly into action when they're all gone in a few seasons? Where are Wigan's replacements for Leuluai, Carmont, Richards, Lima, Finch, Fielden right now? Are Leeds' and Wigans' recruitment rubbish as well? Don't talk such unutterable nonsense.

No, they are a club [uwith money[/u... Money we simply [u[ido not have[/i[/u right now. We've lost =#FF00004 million quid in the last 2 years FFS...... Would you be happier if we sold LP, ground-shared permanently at Naughton Park and used the cash to start competing with Warrington's transfer fees?

Read the post that I replied to!

He stated we had a very rich board, I stated that their board are prepared to pay transfer fees.

If that not correct?

It doesn't matter how rich they are - they are clearly not as inclined as Wire's lot to put their hands in their pockets for transfer fees for whatever reason. I hardly think we can criticise them for that fact. That isn't about Saints' ambition as a club - it is about how a few rich individuals on the board decide they want to spend their spare cash.



As above.

I'm not going to look thru every transfer and signing in the last 5 years, I'm not as boring as you



But don't try and tell me the hasn't been a centre available since willie talau left, dont tell me the has been no halves available in the last 3 years Since longy left etc

Why did McManus come out and tell us saints fans that we will have a team to grace the stadium?

Isn't that pretty much what I said?

I've just said that the Warrington boards are prepared to pay transfer fees and we are not, I'm pretty sure that indicates that have more ambition as a club.

That has been on the market without a transfer fee involved, that are better than what we had in situ at the time, and that have arrived at the right time contracts-wise? None that I can think of but I stand to be corrected. As ever, the challenge for anyone else to name those players that I can't think of stands - it has stood for years on various threads and has still never been answered. So I'm prepared to say that "none" is almost certainly the correct answer.

And again - even if those players [idid[/i exist: every team in the league is constantly as desperate for centres and halves as we are - why do we have a God-given right to be able to sign them over everyone else every time?



He wanted to sell season tickets?

No - I'm pretty sure it just indicates that they have more individuals involved with the club willing to spend their own money on signing players than we do. That does not equate to more ambition "as a club". I am not fully au fait with the relative board makeups of Saints and Wire and all of their personal circumstances, but I'm willing to bet that the rich geezers funding Wire's transfer fees are a lot more closely involved in the ownership and day-to-day running of the club than our bulgey-pocketted types are.

You don't think the wolves have more ambition than us?

They signed king, Atkins when we was looking for a centre.

They signed Joel Monaghan when we've needs wingers.

They signed myler when we needed a scrumhalf.

They beat us to the signing of carvell.

They beat us to the signing of Trent Waterhouse.

They beat us to the signing of Hill.

They beat us to the signing of Ratchford.

Just a few names of players that WAS available when we required them and we was in the mix for most.

Over the last couple of years our board has stumped up significant amounts of cash to fund the building of the stadium and the absorption of the club's debts. Before next season they'll be stumping up more to put up the cladding that everyone's been clamouring for. I suspect you'll see that once these extraordinary expenses are out of the way and the stadium is bringing in steady money that we'll start competing in the transfer market where fees are involved.

I'll also say that we shouldn't underestimate just how difficult the recruitment situation must have been after losing Eastmond and Graham at the same time, which left us needing to replace two of our best players. The problem was particularly tricky, as both players were British, but neither could realistically be replaced from within the British game. Given that we've been forced to fill up our non-fed quota by replacing those players from overseas, we've been sorely restricted in our options for strengthening the rest of the squad.

Having said all that, we clearly didn't manage this difficult situation terribly well. The Hohaia signing has been a real balls up, and I suspect that if Simmons had known how far Gaskell was going to come on in the months following the signing he may not have bothered with it. Laffranci is a good player, but one who probably isn't being used in the best possible way.

It's not ideal, but I think we need to acknowledge the rough luck the club has had. Everyone is crying out for a big rough prop and a halfback with a kicking game. If Kyle and Jammer hadn't have left (and by all accounts we did everything we could to keep them) we'd have both of those things and two free quota spaces to play with.

We had Soliola and Gidley already signed up to play centre when Atkins was signed. When King was signed we already had a full overseas quota and he was, by all accounts, on loony money that we would have struggled to compete with without Wire's accountants.



Freak signing, freak timing, doesn't count. Wire had to pay off whatsisname's entire remaining contract to get him on the quota. Again - money we can't afford.



We had Eastmond, Pryce and Wheeler. No brainer.



etc. etc. etc.

...and we're back to the fact that Warrington have more money and seemingly more flexible cap space than we do. That doesn't mean "more ambition". It just means "more money".... If you want to argue "we have more money than Warrington do really so should be competing more for signings with them" then start another thread and go argue yourself to a standstill there.

That post is full of excuses mate. Freak signing, no quota etc




You still aint answered my question.

Do you think we have more ambition than Warrington?

It's a never ending argument this one. The fanboy do-gooders who can see now wrong in anything the club does who believe we're fantastic and about to win trophies again. Then we've got the realists who can see we're making a complete mess of our attempts to get back into the hunt for trophies.

It's pointless justifying our lack of trophies by saying we're third. The competition is so weak we would have to do something truly remarkable to finish below 6th. We've got that third position (So far) by falling back on the oldest players in the side and removing a lot of the youth we hung our cap on as the new breed. It's not a great way to plan your future.

Next season? Slightly worse than this if we don't sign anyone else? Wello will be even more of a farce, Meli will have no need to play for a contract, we still won't have a kicking game or enough props. In reality it's likely to take another 10+ years or a change of ownership for us to get back amongst the trophies.

I saw this coming 5/6 years ago when we stopped signing quality on and was brain washed in to how good our youth is and it will win trophies for the next ten years.

The problem being, I don't see much youth about at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, with a lot of luck we could win the grand final but we'd have to be on the top of our game while the other team would need a off day as it will be Wigan or Warrington if we was to get to old Trafford.

My point in all this, you need to build on success and not get complacent when winning cups, teams should strive to be better and that comes with good signings.

Manchini is saying the same thing at the moment with city, they need to build on winning the league last year as the likes of utd, Chelsea and nal will come back stronger.

I think we lost sight of that when we was winning trophies.