I'd like DA back but I highly doubt he'd come back ion fulltime basis but asking him to do the rest of the season is a possibilty.

Simmons delivered exactly the same as Potter. Saints have started slow and ... (Shock horr) Continued to decline.

The coach can only work with what he has got. A series of so-so purchases with players who cba and youngster who haven't come good.

You could have Wayne Bennett, Michael Maguire, Jack Gibson or Tim Sheens, it wouldn't matter!

Nonsense.

We're all aware our squad isn't quite what it was. With one of the coaches you mention we still might not win the competition, but I doubt very much we'd be showing the current degree of incohesion and mental frailty.

I'm leaning more towards the need to change, but I'd still give it till after Easter.

You need more than 6 games to sack a coach, also if there is a problem a new coach will have little impact against the like of Leeds, Wire and Wigan. Better to give any new man a fresh start with winnable games. Whether that be KP, DA or someone else.

Also I would imagine the board would need the time as they will not have been sounding otut replacements for game 6, and I prefer to give Royce time to turn it around. Last night was a game too far for most. But given we lost 3 of our first 6 in 2007, I'm not ready just yet to be calling for his head. But the seed has been planted shall we say.

Sorry mate but don't agree with that at all.

Look at the job McGuire did with the same squad at Wigan that noble had. Look at the difference in our play under DA.

A coach can organise a team and at the moment that's what we need as we've no organisation at all.

I think it's time to make a clean cut away from the current coach and his assistant and bring two in that have some fresh ideas.

You missed a word out there St pete,

=#FF0000* quality.

If you do sack RS, who do you get? You could go through two or three before someone right is appointed. I see Rogues got some stick for his comment, but he is right. If your not careful you could go the same way we did and churn coaches in the next few years. Remember, it took years for Wigan to work out it was attitude on the training park more than anything that was wrong. I believe Radlinski, SW and Bitcon had as much to do with the change as MM did. Its not all down to coaching the starting first team 17.

That's why in a thread I've just started I've stated we need a new coach Witt his own men on his coaching staff just like MM did at Wigan.

But some of the coaching staff stayed. SW, has been there through most of the coaches but he did not change it years ago. For all I know he could have been banging on Mo's door every day trying to make him see what was wrong. But what made Wigan wake up?? I have no idea but Radlinski book came out not long after it started to change. I know a lot of Wigan fans bang on about it, but if you have not read it, it is well worth it from a RL point of view. He does tell you what was wrong and what was going on. I remember talking to Terry O'connor in his last year at Wigan, his exact words to me, "Wigan will nothing with Mo in charge. The sooner he goes the better for Wigan" He was shafted in his last year and was bitter, but he was right.

As Lippy points out, the changes made at Wigan were bigger than just a change of coaching staff. The change of owner from Whelan to Lenegan was the instigator for our recent success. Ian went about changing everything, from the staff, to the ethos at the club. But we needed it, and badly.

I think it's perhaps a tad too early to say that much of a change is needed at Saints.

As many of you probably won't like to admit it. I don't think Rogues is far off in his appraisal of Saints current predicament. It certainly rings bells with me, and reminds me of the slippery slope Wigan went down.

I think it's too early to be sacking Simmons. Especially as he got us to the GF last season with a depleted squad. However, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if McManus is thinking very seriously about the question. Let's not forget that it was Simmons himself who said failure to bring home a trophy this season will cost him his job. Irrespective of whether we think this squad is good enough or not it's pretty clear [iMcMANUS thinks it is[/i and if Royce cannot realise the potential he sees in it he's a goner.

What about Noble? Wigan in 2005/2006 were in a very similar position to us, with lynchpins leaving (Farrell). Could he turn us around the way he did Wigan? Would the players respond to him, some of them having played under him at GB level?

It depends who makes the decisions at Saints. I've never had anyone state categorically who is in charge of identifying and signing players for the first team. If it's McManus, then sacking the coach is the only option, other than to put his hands up and admit the blame, which he is very unlikely to do. After all his chest beating about the stadium and our wonderful side, he's gone awfully quiet all of a sudden.

How anyone could suggest the current squad is capable of winning a trophy is beyond me. It's a mid table side that is in mid table. Simmons isn't a great coach and we're just ticking along where we should be with the squad we've got. What the club desperately needs is to rediscover it's ambition if the stadium's potential is to be fulfilled. I wouldn't like the task of selling season tickets for next season if we continue playing the horrible style of rugby we play at the moment and this season goes as it is looking likely to do.

If you want stability in a transition then Noble is your man, he'll stop you slipping any further. However I'm not sure he has it in him tactically to get the best out of a Saints squad. He was lucky to inherit a very good Bulls side that made his name by blending perfectly with his forward based risk adverse tactics. If Saints fans can't except five drives and a kick under Simmons, then you'd be disappointed with Nobles approach which is similar. I don't think the Noble style suits Saints or it's personnel, just like it didn't work to Wigan's full potential.

I'm wondering whether Royce's health issues before the season started have taken something away from his focus for the season.

He was poor last year mate, I know he got us to a grand final but even he stated the teams picking its self due to injuries.

The nail in the coffin for any coach is when he can't get his players up for games. At the moment we are flat and unmotivated.

Think back to them 15 min spells when we'd get up for it and smash players in defense with good hard tackling, that's a thing of the past now.

The players are bored.

Was thinking of that myself, he has had a family bereavement and his skin cancer scare, two stressful events which you can,t shake off mentally.
At the end of the day it's down to players attitude, it's them that are making the basic errors and not giving any confidence to the coaching staff that they can adapt to the pressure changes in a game.

I'm sorry - "poor" is not an applicable adjective for any coach that gets a team full of rookies (also battling significant internal strife - Eastmond) to a GF. Even if the team picked itself every week it would still require coaching. Royce did a great job last season. Of course things could have been better - but you can't expect the kinds of performances we saw under Millward and Anderson without the likes of Long, Martyn, Iro, Hoppe, Sullivan, Anderson, Newlove, Albert etc.

Irrespective of this season's shambles - Royce at the very least deserves enormous respect for last season's achievements. Devaluing them is simply an exercise in self-deception.

We finished outside the top 2 for the first time since 2005 I think, some see this as poor, I see it more in the normal life cycle of a club. The key is whether we fall into a depression like bradford or Wigan, and skirt with life outside the playoffs, or have a dip like Leeds did, which skirted the lower ends of the playoffs and did not challenge for a few years, but did not panic and turned it around.

If we start chopping and changing the halfbacks each year and sacking coaches year after year, then I'll be concerned. If we bide our time and just ride out the rough form, then we still have a very able team, but the coach needs to earn his crust, we are on a losing run that seams to be catching at present, we are not losing due to terrible performances but because of average performances that then lead to a lack of confidence in holding leads whether they be by 20 points or 2 points. We can't close out a game ( with or without Roby). This comes back to a lack of a leader a general on the field. Graham may have been a shouter and some may not have liked that, but whether you liked his style you could not deny he was in charge and could motivate the team to close out a game.

It's Royce's job to find that general in someone, who can control the game when we are 2points ahead with 20mins to go and call the plays needed for that extra try. Once we are confident we can hold a lead, in a tight game, then we will be more likely not to have such tight games.

I seem to remember the Wigoons had this very similar scenario about 5 years ago no communication and trying to bring younger players through. They ended up with Shirley as captain but took another 2 seasons for him to be the "general in the team".
Who could we nominate as the leader in our team to step up onto the plate, I can,t think of one single player at the moment to provide any inspiration, experience to boss the team across the park...............this is our biggest concern at the moment and not the coach.
How many inspirational captains have we had outside the pack, can't think of any. Could Wellens do the job by moving into the pack so that he can boss it from the "engine room", because he has having little effect of captain leadership from an isolated full back position.

Bottom line is that the current squad of players is the weakest it has been for many years but I can't help feeling that a better coach than Simmons would be getting more out of them.

We're below Potter's Bradford in the league, and Potter's Bradford have played Wigan, Wire and Catalans with a pretty badly weakened squad.

We look a badly coached team because Simmons is a bad coach. He is light years behind Potter, not that I would expect those who crucified Potter and trumpeted Simmons' arrival to agree.

The bloke is clueless IMO.

Did you see his post match comments?

Not being funny here,is it the fact that you got beat by Hull that has you all up in arms,or are things really that bad?

Its not all bad, you took the game by the scruff of the neck in the second half. Something we have failed to do in any single game this season with possibly the exception of Salford.

Its not all bad, you took the game by the scruff of the neck in the second half. Something we have failed to do in any single game this season with possibly the exception of Salford.