Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"Yes, you are right. Though after a promising start at the Panthers when they came second in 2010 they came 12th and a disastrous 15th in 2011&2012. The NRL review makes interesting reading especially the bit about being the worst kicking team in the competition. www.nrl.com/season-review-penrit ... fault.aspx Burns was dropped in his final season and released to join Hull KR where he struggled in the first season. However there is no doubt that he played well last season and earned his three year contract with Saints at this late stage of his career. Achieving something over there is incredibly hard; Thurston has won jack in a Cowboys jersey, I'm guessing he's a 'journeyman' as well ? Burns isn't international class, but if he were English, he would be ! My point was that the argument that Saints have a better stand off than Wigan can't be taken as read. It may turn out to be correct. Burns is the epitome of 'journeyman' whereas Williams and Hampshire have their whole careers ahead of them and could achieve anything in the game. No disrespect, because he is clearly good enough for Super League but Burns has achieved nothing.'" Interesting manipulation of the situation there. Burns was to all intents and purposes, kicked out of Penrith due to a 12 match suspension he incurred after being charged with an intentional high tackle and chicken wing in the same game. Prior to that, he'd played nearly 130 NRL matches over a 7 year people whereby he'd been a first choice 6 in pretty much all. Luke Walsh, whom you lot are trying to denigrate on your own board at present, was voted joint 7th in the Dally M the year he left for us. I know categorically that he tried to get out of the Saints contract because a current NRL team wanted him as their first choice 7. He's credited as having his best ever season, the year he left for England. To you daft lot, he's a 'journeyman' as well. I find it hilarious that you can seriously raise the argument that Matty Smith and George Williams are even comparable. Take Wigan's system away by defending correctly and they look like amateurs. Saints' two halves are seasoned, respected NRL first teamers. Smith and Williams wouldn't even be playing first grade over there.

Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"Yes, you are right. Though after a promising start at the Panthers when they came second in 2010 they came 12th and a disastrous 15th in 2011&2012. The NRL review makes interesting reading especially the bit about being the worst kicking team in the competition. www.nrl.com/season-review-penrit ... fault.aspx Burns was dropped in his final season and released to join Hull KR where he struggled in the first season. However there is no doubt that he played well last season and earned his three year contract with Saints at this late stage of his career. Achieving something over there is incredibly hard; Thurston has won jack in a Cowboys jersey, I'm guessing he's a 'journeyman' as well ? Burns isn't international class, but if he were English, he would be ! My point was that the argument that Saints have a better stand off than Wigan can't be taken as read. It may turn out to be correct. Burns is the epitome of 'journeyman' whereas Williams and Hampshire have their whole careers ahead of them and could achieve anything in the game. No disrespect, because he is clearly good enough for Super League but Burns has achieved nothing.'" Interesting manipulation of the situation there. Burns was to all intents and purposes, kicked out of Penrith due to a 12 match suspension he incurred after being charged with an intentional high tackle and chicken wing in the same game. Prior to that, he'd played nearly 130 NRL matches over a 7 year people whereby he'd been a first choice 6 in pretty much all. Luke Walsh, whom you lot are trying to denigrate on your own board at present, was voted joint 7th in the Dally M the year he left for us. I know categorically that he tried to get out of the Saints contract because a current NRL team wanted him as their first choice 7. He's credited as having his best ever season, the year he left for England. To you daft lot, he's a 'journeyman' as well. I find it hilarious that you can seriously raise the argument that Matty Smith and George Williams are even comparable. Take Wigan's system away by defending correctly and they look like amateurs. Saints' two halves are seasoned, respected NRL first teamers. Smith and Williams wouldn't even be playing first grade over there.

I don't think anyone is trying to 'denigrate' Luke. He is a top class Super League player. The best half in the league. What more do you want?

Matty is at least the current England scrum half. To most Saints fans however, he will always be the guy who was surplus to your requirements. At least give him the credit he deserves that he has turned his career around and improved markedly as a player with Wigan.

Even The Roosters had difficulty defending Wigan's 'system' so I don't think it's as easy as you make out. If every team 'defended correctly' there'd be no tries would there?

Smith will always be that guy, yes. We had Eastmond, significantly the better player; however Saints didn't plan that time very well at all and it's took them 3 years to fix it. Even now, they have Hohaia as one of their top earners despite being little more than ordinary because of the lack of foresight Saints showed. Lot of money in play for Saints to work with when Hohaia leaves at the end of this coming season.

Regardless, Smith has never been anything but Joe Ordinary. He can run your plays and provide a semi-decent kicking game but under pressure, he ain't going to cut it. It's why in games ike the GF, when it was obvious to all that Saints were defending your system correctly, you couldn't offer anything remotely different. Smith can't do 'different', he doesn't have it in him,

The Roosters game was a preseason friendly for them. How do we honestly think the likes of Wigan, Saints, Leeds, Warrington would get on against them in Australia if we faced them mid-season ? They'd have to declare !

Fair enough points. I think that describing Matty as Joe Ordinary is a little unfair. He may very well be limited but a lot of people rate him highly enough to include him in the Dream Team and the England team.

Also Lance is after all a World Cup winner. Not a bad pedigree is it? That Saints bought him then didn't know where to play him is hardly his fault. A little more respect might be in order. But then that's none of my business. So I'll say no more.

Looks like SLS is here to stir it up.

It will be like the immovable object meeting the irresistable force when he and Saddened meet.

I don't think Smith has improved that much, more experienced maybe but skill wise no. I always liked him when at Saints but recognized his limited ability. He has become another of the fortunate players to gain honours whilst playing for the pies. There is a long history of players being selected for international duty just because they have signed for wigin. Sarginson is another who would hardly be known if he was still at London. I still remember Neil Cowie signing from Rochdale to wigin; just an average prop who became an international class player by a signature. My prediction for this term is that the pies will struggle.

Smith being in the England team or Dream Team is more an indictment of the state of British RL than anything else.

Hohaia, not disrespectful at all really. Saints signed him as a half back when they were desperate for a big name moving into their new ground. He isn't a half whatsoever but offers nice cover across a range of positions. Saints will be much, much stronger for having a proper 6 and 7 this year for the first time in donkey's.

It's been a while since he impressed me in the second row tbh. I think his best rugby was when he carried us in the halves and IMO walked our player of the year that season.

I'm not a big fan of Wilkin and think he will struggle as a forward next season as players get bigger and stronger every year and he just shrinks.

Williams might be quicker than Walsh when running but has he the speed of thought as Walsh ?

The latest installment from that group of ing idiots over the lump.

None of our players stand out but with Longy back our half back and back play should improve.

They're all ing mad. Convinced of it.

Didn't you say on the wigan board that Luke Walsh was a Journeyman ? but then Matty smith isn't just average?
For the record i don't think Matty is just average but you can't say that someone who was voted as one of the best palyers in the nrl is average but also claim Matty smith is awesome!

Wigan fans really are like the the lego men in the movie "everything is awesome!"

Going back to the OP.
Green, Dudson, James & Taylor have left Wigan.
A fee was received for Taylor the rest were OOC.
Of those arriving Patrick is on loan, Tautai was OOC, Greenwood returns from a loan at London and Mossop was released by the Eels and signed for Wigan.
Not all that much buying and selling really!

What a ridiculous statement. Amor who you rated as your best prop in a previous thread, came from Wakey. Walmsley, who I rate as only behind Hill as the best prop in SL, came from Batley. What does it matter where they have been signed from, it's what they offer the team they are joining. Who would you have ahead of Mossop in your 17? He's got some nice medals for not being up to anything.
As for Crosby, I'm referring to later crackpot posts here as well, no one has ever on any thread said he is AWESOME. He is a fine young player who improved greatly last season. His stats are pretty good. Average gain just less than Amor. By the way have you seen the season stats for your 2 superstar 19 year olds. Average gain both of around 6 metres. Greenwood in a terrible London side averaged over 7. =#FF0000You think it's only Wigan fans who think their own players are AWESOME. How the hell can you say Percival is the best centre at both clubs.

Did you see Sarginson play at all in the second half of the season. He's got areas to work on of course, but having seen how he played for England, he could be a very special player indeed. As for your rating of Gelling, what planet are you on? He improved as the season went on, he made hard yards in his own half as well as in attack. 11 try assists show he certainly has a rugby league players skillset. More assists and tries than Percival. Yes Gelling makes some mistakes but he does off the cuff moves that don't always work. I thought a fan of the Entertainers would see that.
You keep going on about what Wigan players did in the GF. We had one less forward for 78 minutes. We were never going to make metres down the middle a man light, it would have been tough doing that with a full compliment.


Can I just remind you how you got on with a man light against the team we absolutely smashed in the play offs.

No one has misread or taken any of your comments out of context. You have completely slagged off quite a few of our team. Then you say there isn't much between the two teams. Well your players must be pretty awful as well then, or your trying to dig yourself out of a pretty big hole.
Wigan fans are the same as fans of any club in any sport. You big up your own players. Your certainly not shy of doing it yourself. Let's see how that TURKEY Tomkins goes this year shall we!
As for leaving themselves open to ridicule, I suggest anyone wanting a good laugh read your posts on this thread.

Taken out of context. If you'd care to read the thread, someone made the comment that the NRL and Super League were of a similar standard. i used the example of Luke Walsh to illustrate that in the NRL he didn't get near to rep standard (and listed all the half backs NSW had used in his time) and yet he is the best half back in Super League. I used the term 'journeyman' in NRL terms. Then someone pointed out that he came 7th in the Dally M one year, so I agreed that i was over egging it a bit.

Matty is a limited player who has improved no end at Wigan. He does his job well, so much so that he is the current England scrum half. They were very close to beating both NZ and Aus with him in the team, so he wasn't a disaster in the job. The England team looks the strongest we've had for over a decade.

I'm happy to discuss these things with you, but I'm not really interested in name calling. I'm not stupid and neither are you, so let's not bring this down to the level of "You said..." without at least trying understand the point being made. I'm sure you are capable of nuanced discussion.

Just to emphasize for those who are not - Luke Walsh is the best half back in Super League. In the NRL he was not in the top half dozen (except for one year) and came nowhere near to representing NSW or Australia. So if I say he is the best in Super League - then ergo - he is better than Matty Smith.

I think there's a good argument to suggest Walsh was the NRL equivalent of Matty Smith. A good scrum half with all the necessary skills to do a good job for his club. Being at Penrith probably won't have helped him challenge for rep hours as they tend to struggle. All of a sudden, buying NRL clubs have realised that quality half backs are thin on the ground, Penrith were going well and there was a bit of a kerfuffle from a couple of clubs trying to hijack the contract he's signed with Saints.
In SL, he's playing for a top club and probably finds things a tad easier. That's potentially why he's standing out more than when he was at PEnrith.

Matty Smith is no world beater, but good scrum halfs are few and far between and while he may be limited, he's pretty consistent, unlike some "superstar" halfs that go into hiding 50% of big matches. He's not a player to be sniffed at.

It doesn't matter. I haven't said it does. What I said was that you're putting a lot of hope in them. I've already said I like Tautai. Patrick I've said is an impact player who may not have the same impact against good sides. Mossop isn't in the same universe as Amor or Walmsley. He wouldn't offer anywhere near the impact of Masoe and I wouldn't swap him for any of our young props, Thompson, Richards, Savelio etc.



Average gain similar to an Amor that wasn't fit for more than half a season. To those with a clue, he was still nowhere near fitness when he came back as well. Crosby isn't fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Amor. Greenwood I haven't even mentioned (???), however I think he looks a talent. Your comparison is pretty fruitless. Greenwood was a frontline prop at London, Thompson and Richards were 4th/5th option, Thompson in particular playing as a third prop when on the field. If you can't see the ability in Thompson, then there's no helping you. What's even more pleasing is that they were both fantastic in the biggest game of the season. Temperament is something that is difficult to coach; they both look like they've got it. Crosby, on the biggest stage, well.....got battered and offered nothing,



I like Sarginson, as I've already said, he's a talent. However, he isn't that great. Defensively, he's very, very vulnerable. He needs to learn a centre's line, which Percival has naturally. I appreciate they are both young, both talented but I wouldn't swap Percival for any of your backline. His potential is through the roof. Of course, I wouldn't expect a daft Wiganer to recognise it.



Gelling's crap. My opinion. If you don't like it - tough, I really don't care. However, for the sake of your daft lot over the lump, Gelling played more matches, in a side that tactically plays much more lateral than St Helens and in a side that didn't lose it's entire playmaking contingent and could barely pass in the final third of the season. Stats, in this instance, mean jack . Again, one cannot expect a daft Wiganer to see this. EVERYTHING IS AWESOME.



You stil had props on the park. You just couldn't use them. In much the same way you daft lot denigrate St Helens' inability to break you down easily without recognising the lack of a single half, the utilisation of Turner, Flanagan and Wellens as pivots and Percival shoved to the wing to incorporate LMS at centre, I'm not accepting any excuses for your props' inability to make metres. They got battered, hence you kept going wide and going nowhere. Even when you opened us up, one can always rely on Bowen to it up on the big occasion.



And this means what ? Read the papers, nobody gives a . You lot keep heaping the pressure on yourselves with your misguided belief that you're some form of invincible RL force. You aren't, you're pretty one dimensional in truth. Your own coach has publicly stated that he's looking to change things a bit this season; why the do you think that is ?!?! It isn't because he has upmost confidence in your ability to win everything with the same you've passed off as rugby over the last couple of years. He wants you to play straighter, compete more in the middle and offload a little. It's because he knows teams have figured your set play shift out and learned that dominating you in the middle renders that set piece much easier to control. Obviously, your own fans can't even see this and blindly continue with their mental optimism. Rock the on.

Oh, and before you daft lot go ape at my last post, I'd just like to acknowledge that faults are there to be improved on. I could list off a load of faults that Saints players and the team have or Warrington's, Leeds', anyone. However, this is a thread about Wigan so what's the point in that ?

All I hope for is a good season with plenty more British talent establishing itself. May the best team win and if that be Wigan, so be it. I won't have any trouble coming back in a year and congratulating whoever wins it. I just hope for a quality season of rugby.

I have never said I don't rate either of them, I merely put Greenwood in as an example. What difference does it make whether they are front line or third prop by the way. surely it's easier for a third prop to make yards when the defence is tiring in either half.



His defence improved greatly last season, defended well in the 4 nations. A daft Saints fan wouldn't recognise that though. Sarginsons potential is just the same as Percival.



For the love of God, how many times do we have to do this. We only had =#FF0000one prop on the pitch at any one time after Flower was sent off.
Going nowhere. Sarginson made 191 metres! We bombed a couple of good chances made out wide, so we certainly weren't going nowhere. I've read plenty of posts from sensible Saints fans, sayng they were worried every time we attacked out wide. I pointed out how you lot lost a 10 point lead when down to 12 men against the Giants. I take it you're not accepting any excuses for that loss then.



The last 2 years we've won the double and lost a GF, which we probably would have won without Flowers moment of madness. We scored the most tries last season. We need to have other options of course, Wane has recognised that, but our rugby has been pretty effective the last 2 seasons.



Show me one person who has said this. As i said before, every fan of every club in any sport, always rates their own players higher than other teams. It's part of life. Your obvious hatred of Wigan has made you look a right tool on this thread. As your fellow saints fans have commented, this could come back to bite you on the bum come next October.

You were always going to lose that grand final. Wigan had one plan which always fell apart when the opposition got right up in Wigan's face. That's what Saints did from the kick off and straight away Wigan lost it in the guise of Flower. If it wasn't Flower it would have been someone else.

Anytime through the season a team with fast line speed got right up in Wigan's face and cut down the game plan Wigan fell apart. Wigan win when the opposition back off (usually because they are intimidated). If it wasn't Flower doing his stupid deed then it would have been something else - passes out to the wing flying past the winger and into touch, stupid penalties, knocking on at the PTB etc. etc. Wigan do all these things in spades when they are under pressure.

Wigan were doomed to lose that final because they are Wigan, they came with one game plan and it was knocked aside. Saints played it perfect, they got right into Wigan's face from the first second then watched Wigan implode through their own stupidity.

All the neutrals I have spoken to have been absolutely made up that Saints won because they see how Wigan play.

Well, Thompson for instance played a little wider than the frontline props in a side that struggled moving the ball. He played as a third prop from the back of the scrum, not really as an interchange. It isn't really about tiring defences. The consequence of this is that a defence has more time to slide and move up and so the carrier doesn't make the same level of yardage. Greenwood may well also be a stronger ball carrier than both, hence the increased yardage. Again, I'm not sure what your issue is because I've never even mentioned Greenwood.......each to their own. These are tactical nuances as well which one can't expect your daft lot to understand.



Didn't see any of the Four Nations, hence I haven't commented on them once. I'd dispute that Sarginson's potential is the same, he isn't a natural in the same way Percival is in that position in my opinion, manifesting in as I said, a player that doesn't run a natural centre's line. I'm willing to accept that his defence improved. In fairness, it couldn't get much worse. He's a talent, I've already said it, I'm not sure what more you're after ? I could just state that Wigan are the best team I've ever seen and we should all lie down and not bother trying. The funny part is your board would probably consider that reasonable.



There are tactical means to still use the middle of the field however. Wigan chose not to. Wane made the choice to leave one prop on the field at any one time because your game is based on playing down the channels. That's hardly St Helens' fault, is it ? The fact remains that your props went nowhere. Crosby 20 odd metres in a Grand Final ?!?! That's pathetic. Can't make metres when Masoe keeps knocking him on his though I guess......




This is how you daft lot try and argue how good all your players are. Your backs make metres because of your tactics, where you shift much earlier and aim to make territory by attacking through the channels. You do it even more when the opposition defence is aggressive in the middle and you invariably can't handle it. In fairness, you're good at going wide early and your strengths lie there (because they certainly didn't lie in the front row). However, stronger defences use 'bend and don't break' tactics, where they slide out wide until the room runs out. The consequence is usually an attacker turning in field where he is easily defended. Of course you had your opportunities, all sides will do over 80 minutes. You weren't good enough to take them because you carry some error prone players lacking in composure.



Sensible fans ? You mean fans that agree with you ? Well, there's a real shock !

The Giants ? We had no playmakers alongside a man sent off and still went close. You conveniently just gloss over the fact that Saints had zero passing game at the end of the season; they literally could do little except attack the middle of the field and yourselves, Leeds, Catalans, Cas etc still couldn't beat us.



Yes, you've done okay whilst teams and the RFL figure your crap out. Saints probably would have strolled it with a full strength team. Saints with a fit playmaker probably score more tries than you judging by the start we made. Saints with Luke Walsh after Flower was sent off would have had to declare at Old Trafford and Wigan could have been looking at the biggest reversal in GF history. You should count yourselves fortunate. See ? We can all play 'ifs, buts and maybes'......



I could point to a whole raft of utterly embarrassing posts by Wiganers (you're all very good at it). Still, I call things as I see them and aren't prepared to sit on the fence and be beige like most on here. It's ing boring to be honest.

Bite me on the ? An Internet forum ? Oh, what will I do ! How will I ever move on !

I love the smell of quotes in the morning.

Since we're all so concerned with things 'biting us on the ' at the end of the season, I've just done some interesting reading on Wiganer's thoughts on us prior to the season just gone.

This isn't 2006, Saints are now an afterthought.

Wigan's spine is 'head and shoulders' above Saints' (that would be the spine that lost to Makinson at 1, Turner at 7, Flanagan at 6 and Roby at 9 I take it

)

McIlorum is now a much better hooker than James Roby !!!!! I can't believe somebody actually wrote this down.

Matty Bowen one of the top five full backs on earth ! Oh, I couldn't breathe for laughing at this one.


Like I said previous, they're all ing crackpots.

If I could be bothered I could find plenty of posts knocking Wigan before the 2013 season, but if I want to keep my job, i'd better do some work.
You have found some good ones there though I have to admit.



That would be fantastic if you did that. The pandemonium that would cause.





Why would he have done anything else? It would be like Brown telling your team to fling the passes out wide and ignore the strength of your team.



I don't care about people agreeing with me, this forum would be dull if everyone agreed with each other. It was more about Saints fans who can appreciate the opposition, something you struggle with.
The no playmakers bit is a bare faced lie. You had LH and GW playing. You were 10-0 up with just over 10 minutes of the first half left, against a team a week later got absolutely thrashed by Wigan. If you think Wigan should still have beaten you a man light, then surely you should have been able to hang on to a lead, against a team who a week later, was one of the poorest that I've ever seen in a play-off game. Or just maybe we helped make them look poor.

Wigan have plenty of ability. The problem is size. Looking at the two sides in the GF Saints looked a stone a man heavier. Maybe more. That size difference was largely responsible for flicking Wigan's yardage game off like a light.

Even with the best backs in the world (which Wigan don't have) - without yardage they must pull a rabbit out of the hat every time or it's a certain defeat. And rabbits aren't statistically significant in any sport at the very top level.