I've had this thought before though, and the debate in my mind springs from the fact that Scott Moore is often judged on what he could do, whereas with smith, you're a lot more sure of the level that you'll actually get. Smith impressed at crusaders playing at hooker and to be honest it suits his playmaking game a bit as it thrusts him further into the action.
Moore has wonderful potential and can come up with some wonderful plays, but he's also got some rotters in him. I've also questioned his heart on occasion - he loves to smash the full back as they take a kick, but there was definately a moment in the Leeds game at home when he bottled the tackle on Bailey close to the line, from which they scored.

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Re Tomkins. I think he'll become a more rounded player as we go on, but his raw talent combined with his spirit make him such a handful.
Midway through the season I'd have rated Eastmond higher, unfortunatley we just can't get him on the pitch long enough and while he's been sidelined, Tomkins has been stealing the show. It just makes Eastmond's apparent susceptibility all the more frustrating when his Wigan counterpart seems pretty much bullet proof.

So?

Karl Pryce. All the (potential) talent in the world and doesn't have the heart to fulfill it. I worry Eastmond is heading the same way (although not as drastically)

Sam is harder to control from fullback, as he has a bit more time to decide when to run and when to pass.

Watch the Leeds semi at Headingley and you'll understand what I mean. he's a superb talented and tough player, who even now would walk into any NRL side.

Even as a Saints fan I would take Tomkins over Eastmond any day. He's a talent that comes along rarely - he has vision, pace, guile, speed and is as tough as anyone. But the one thing that makes him better than many/most is what most class players have - time. He appears to have oceans of it and he's a pleasure to watch.

Kyle is an opportunist - mesmeric in flashes and bursts but not consistently even accounting for his injuries. A number 7 (and Tomkins isn't one so the comparison doesn't apply) he needs to control and direct a game, take the ball to he line to bring on runners and be prepared to take a smack, and be present throughout the game.

I am not bagging Kyle - he has talent and has bad luck. But on what I have seen so far I wish Tomkins was a Saints player.

Despite so many comparisons that are drawn between them, I think they're very differnet players. I (perhaps in the minority on this board) think Kyle is ideally suited to the first reciever role of scrum half. He's got a decent kicking and passing game but it complemented by his speed off the mark, something very valuable close to the ruck. Sam seems to especially excell when he gets the ball slightly wider in his stand off or full back roles, already moving when he can utilise those rangy sidesteps to taunt the defence.
What would have hopefully improved with Kyle's game had he got a full season would have been his decision making and game plan execution, something saints are very much missing at the moment.

They could have been a devastating partnership if they linked up for England fully fit.

Agreed.

I think it was what any sensible England RL fan wanted.

I agree with your point of needing pace at full back, although Wello does a superb job for us at full back. The only point I wanted to make about the number of metres made by Tomkins compared to Wello is that our kicking game played a vital part, in that:

1. We kicked to Tomkins on the last tackle a hell of a lot (while Wigan kicked to Wello, Foster, Meli, and to touch).
2. Tomkins got the majority of our kicks on the full, whilst we had to retrieve the ball from the floor.

Both of those contibute in Tomkins being able to gain more metres.

I do agree though, that a pacy fullback is almost a requirement these days.

Has Wellens ever been tried (for an extended period of time) at loose forward? He's creative with the ball in hand, absolutely solid in defence, could play havoc as he would still have the ability to pop up anywhere across the line.

I like the idea of Wello at Loose Forward and could see it happening when he becomes too slow to play at full back anymore. Perhaps the reason we haven't yet signed a recognised out and out Loose Forward and rather just players to cover that position.

hang on. some on here are saying that tomkins is a class player?? hmm..(hopefully they have deleted their previous post about him)

Bowvey said



To which you replied



We didn't control Tomkins at full back when we won at Wigan because he didn't play there.

Stopping Tomkins is not just about "a couple of markers doing their job" any more than you can stop, say, Billy Slater in that way. Some players on their day are pretty much unplayable (just like Pryce has been at times in 2010) and there have been plenty of times this year when Tomkins has been just that. Unfortunately, he had a blinder on Saturday.

I know this is a Tomkins thread - I will come back to him in a minute......the issue we have with Eastmond, even when fully fit is that he is a drifter. He comes in and out of the game when he feels like it, which is not necessarily a bad thing, thats just the type of player he is. The problem is that no team can afford to have two drifters playing in the halves and unfortunately, Pryce is also a drifter, so when they are on the pitch together, Kyle isnt playing his natural game. The club/coaching staff will be working on Kyle to try to make him into another Longy who can control/dictate a game but this doesnt come naturally to him. I would love to see him develop into a world class half back so fingers crossed he has better luck with injuries and stays away from the dark side.

Back to Tomkins, hes a real natural talent and full back seems his best position - however, with McNamara at the helm, I not certain that we will see him playing there for England. His footwork and illusiveness are his real assets and from fullback, this gives teams a massive advantage. Whilst Wellens offers so much in reliability and dependability, he lacks that Billy Slater esq quality that causes the defence so many problems. Tomkins is showing that he has this kind of talent - maybe Maguire sees a young Slater in his camp and is grooming him for the same kind of stardom.

I don't totally agree. Depsite playing wider roles for us when he first came through, since he first got his chances at scrum half I thought he looked very natural and composed at first receiver. However, what may take some more time to develop is his ability to execute a coaches specific game plan on the pitch, something that Pryce also lacks.

Talking with Dux we hypothosised somewhat in agreement with your sentiment that if Pryce were to go back to Bradford and we were to pick up a player like Barrett for a year, it would bring Kyle on a little more and help give him the extra smarts that a can help win tough games.

Thats exactly what Im talking about. Kyle likes to pick and choose when to come into a game and do something significant (like the try against Wigan under the sticks at KR last season to win the game). What doesnt come naturally is the structured first receiver stuff and game plan plays that coaches like one of the half backs to take on. Thats what I mean when I called them drifters....they like to drift in and out of a game. Its the half back who does this role who is credited for "taking the team around the park and completely controlling the game".

Leon doesnt do this kind of structured work for the team either, which has forced Kyle into this role a bit more. Leon is more of an off the cuff finisher rather than structured player that a Barrett or Longy was by the time he retired.

Given the common call that we need more penetration from full back in order to give us that attacking weapon STomkins has done for wigan, it would seem a plausible solution to move Leon to 1 and bing in a more tactical 6, using Flannery's quota sopt if neccesary. Leon would play basically the same role in attack, but we'd have a leg up on the tactical ladder.

All paper talk, of course. I've seen how much Pryce fancies it when the high ball goes up, and its not a great look on his face.

That's why Matty Smith stood out against Warrington. Whatever the debate may be about his quality, he stepped up and controlled that game, and to all the Saints fans around me, as well as me, it was like a breath of fresh air. Longy had been hit and miss in this area for it feels like ages and we haven't had an organising halfback all season, even though Pryce has tried to do that work (and has been more successful than Eastmond). We need another Smith (debate as to his quality aside because I just don't want to go there again!).

Pryce would have made a devestating full back - except that he doesn't have the heart of someone like wellens who would do anything to prevent a try or take a catch with disregard to his own safety.

I think Kyle will fully develop this side, and sooner rather than later. He already has excellent awareness of the players on the pitch and an all round skill set to make things easier for him. If we can keep him on the field next season, I think by the end of the year he'll be much more accomplished as the controlling player we want - he's streets ahead of where Long was at his age.


He's got it in him, the match that sticks in my mind was when he came on against Wigan at the DW last year and totally settled our team down and saw us through for the win in exactly the manner we're talking about. That's when both he and Tomkins had started to be getting regular games.

his it true they call eastmond tampax in one week out three

He's funny like that, Pryce. I too get that impression, but then some weeks you see him really put himself about in defence, so I'm not sure. He does have a lot of size to stop people on the line, but tends to flap with his arms a bit.

Classic from the Catalan game (away) earlier in the year that sums up Leon perfectly:

Lomax gets knocked clean out and goes off.

Wilkin gets a nasty cut to the head, goes into the dressing room has 14 internal stitches, 16 external stitches and goes back to the bench. Wilkin asks Lomax if he could borrow his scull cap just incase he has to go back on.

20 mins to go.......Joey Hayes comes running from the field....."Jon, get ready....you are going to have to go back on.........Leon's headache has got really bad."

That's a bit of a short term view isn't it? Wellens is 30 already. How many more years does he have in his legs?