Gareth Raynor but taller?

As a Hull KR fan I have a particular distain for all things Hull FC but Raynor is in a different class to Gardner in almost every respect.

Steady on. You could say he might be better and make an argument for that but different class? Are you havin' a laff? Is he havin' a laff?

I think he must be.

I love it when a fan of another club comes on and describes our own player. In the what...maybe 10 games a year that you get the chance to see Saints, how do you manage to spot these obvious problems in his game which Saints speccies (who watch pretty much every Saints game) don't see ?

Can anybody remember the last time Gardner looked a mess defensively ? I certainly can't, in fact I can't think of a better SL winger at defending his flank and supporting his centre defensively. The decision making of Gardner defensively is one of his strongest qualities.



Raynor is so awesome that he doesn't even run forward. If I wanted to watch a crab, I'd visit the beach. There is no way Raynor is a better winger defensively than Gardner either, not a cat in hells chance. He's quicker than Gardner and that is about it (plus he's better at going sideways, I think Raynor is pretty much the best sideways runner in International RL).



Gardner could never be 'right up there' because he is too slow for a winger. However, in terms of British wingmen, there is absolutely no competition for Gardner, none at all.

Two Posts In And Already A Laughing Stock!...

Do you talk b@ll@cks all the time or do you have a day off, you spout some absolute garbage. Gardner scores the amount of trys he does because he's got the best centre in the comp inside of him and when he doesn't he looks average at best look at the world cup, when he was absolute pants

Oh christ, it must the asylum day out....

Can you highlight where in my post I have discussed the try scoring exploits of Gardner ?

You see, when you read the post (and engage your brain) you will grasp that it is discussing the defensive choices Gardner makes.

The most recent and most glaring example I can give you is his performance in the WC. There have been plenty of other incidents throughout his career though. And not so much 'a mess', more coming in, biting on a wedge or coming in to double up on an opposing centre, leaving a gap on the outside. He can tackle, I haven't questioned that. His decision making is not very good though.



That pretty much ends any chance of a decent debate. If you think that he only runs sideways (you clearly don't, do you? If you did, you'd probably be shocked to learn that their metres per game and metres per carry were pretty similar last year, despite Gardner being in a team that creates many more opportunities, and him being on the wing that profits most from that) there's not much point continuing as it would mean that you know next to nothing about the game. It would be amazing that someone who only runs sideways could manage so often to get his arms through the tackle to offload or that he could bust so many tackles. Plus it would mean that, rather than the actual situation which involves him making extremely valuable and helpful-to-the-team ground away from our line, he be constantly pushed back into the in-goal area when scooting during exit sets. That doesn't happen either though, does it?

And defensively, he very rarely makes the wrong choice (it happens sometimes, but even the best wingers do it occasionally as their natural instinct to stop the ball getting to the outside comes into play) and almost invariably completes the tackle after making that choice.



'Right up there' in terms of being one of the best British wingers. As it is, he falls just short of the top two or three due to his defensive failings. It is something that can be improved though and he just needs coaching away from his natural instinct.

raynor
fox
smith
calderwood

all better than gardner.

and when pryce gets fit he'll be better than him as well.

>s<

Looks like the mighty HKR are going to run us ragged.
There's always next year for us.

Calderwood ?

Last year he scored 2 tries and Gardner scored 26 and yet Calderwood is a better player.

When during the WC specifically can you highlight? This is bearing in mind that during the WC, England as a whole squad looked rubbish due to the superiority of their opponents. The likes of Lockyer and co have the ability to isolate top quality NRL wingmen every week. It is hardly surprising they can do the same to a SL winger. With the exception of the WC, you are refering back to the Gardner of at least 2 years ago, which I refuse to accept as an argument.



So we are discounting the fact that Gardner and Raynor have fairly equal stats purely on the basis that one is at Hull and one at Saints? Have you ever thought there may be a reason in that? Gardner profits mainly from his centre in the last 10 metres of the field. If anybody had the nous to actually watch Saints and not listen to the balls the Sky team say, they would realise that Saints rarely look to isolate the winger except when within 10-15 metres of the tryline (and occasionally from deep in our own 20). This leaves Gardner with basically his chances to finish off in the corner, which he is very good at and his chances to support the pack with scoots from dummy half, which he is very good at also.

As always with Gardner, his stats and performances are to discarded by all because he has a very good centre inside him apparently, yet Raynors not because he has the misfortune to play in a garbage side.



It gets better!!!!
Raynor is justified in his odd cock up as 'it happens' yet Gardner isn't?
Am I supposed to have a real debate with you when it is evident that you are simply another biased, one eyed fan (although with the ability to type better than most)?




Gardner and defensive failings could only be mentioned in the same sentence by someone who hasn't bothered to watch him and is still basing an opinion on performances from 2/3 years ago,

Go and watch some tape of the SL performances of Gardner from the past 2 years and come back. Forget the WC, all that proved is that every single British RL player is overrated beyond belief and not a match for their NRL counterparts (unless they play for Hull I assume).

Raynor is pi$$ poor. As for Calderwood and Pryce





This thread is filled with LOL

How people can bag Ade is beyond me.

Yes, he gets a lot of tries created for him, but he finishes a lot of tries the other wingers couldn't - his strength of finishing in heavy contact is a real talent.

He's also very solid under kicks.

To use the WC performance is fairly pointless, as we all agree that most players performed below par.

He might not be a great player, but I wouldn't swap him for the other players mentioned (also, given that Smith is roundly considered a full back who might well end up playing centre this year, I don't think its a worth while comparison)

I was talking with Dux about wingers, and he made a point that if Alan Hunte was playing now, he'd be the best winger in the comp, whereas when he was playing he was overshadowed by the likes of Offiah, Robinson and Sullivan. We just don't have many great wingers at the mo.

which try/tries in particular was he responsible for conceding?

I was there, and whilst he didnt exactly set the world alight (like the whole squad) I cant recall any mistakes he made.



again, any definitive examples you would care to share?

as there are so many examples of Gardner's defensive failings, I'm sure you wont struggle to recall some.

Look at the stats for the games played this season and fox and Gardner are pretty evenly matched www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009

Look at the stats for the games played this season and fox and Gardner are pretty evenly matched www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009

Quote ="willowred"Look at the stats for the games played this season and fox and Gardner are pretty evenly matched www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009'" Its 2 games, what can two wingers do so much differently over the course of 2 games. Wait til the end of the season before looking at the head to head stats, or at least until a decent amount of games have been played.

Quote ="willowred"Look at the stats for the games played this season and fox and Gardner are pretty evenly matched www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009'" Its 2 games, what can two wingers do so much differently over the course of 2 games. Wait til the end of the season before looking at the head to head stats, or at least until a decent amount of games have been played.

Quote ="willowred"Look at the stats for the games played this season and fox and Gardner are pretty evenly matched www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009'" After 2 games ?!?!?!?!!?

Quote ="willowred"Look at the stats for the games played this season and fox and Gardner are pretty evenly matched www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009'" After 2 games ?!?!?!?!!?

Quote ="willowred"Look at the stats for the games played this season and fox and Gardner are pretty evenly matched www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009'" I like Peter Fox - unlucky not to get to the World Cup IMO.

Quote ="willowred"Look at the stats for the games played this season and fox and Gardner are pretty evenly matched www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009'" I like Peter Fox - unlucky not to get to the World Cup IMO.

Stats for 2008 Fox isnt bad but Gardner had a way better season as everybody knows www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009

Stats for 2008 Fox isnt bad but Gardner had a way better season as everybody knows www.superleague.co.uk/statistics ... eason=2009

Specifically? 32 minutes in against Australia, Gardner jumps out of position, coming in to attempt to take Slater (who was receiving a wedge ball) when it wasn't necessary. There were two Australians left outside Gardner and, had he stayed out on his man, Inglis would have had no room on the outside of the line and the four (yes, FOUR) sliding defenders would have got across to cover. A poor decision, irrelevant of the quality of the opposition.

55 minutes in in the same game, Gardner bites on a fire/face (whatever you want to call it) ball from Slater, taking the centre who was already covered, leaving Monaghan with a stroll in down the touch line. There were two men covering Inglis, two who would have got to Slater and a covering fullback to clean up if either of these had somehow beaten their two tacklers, yet Gardner still jammed in to take Inglis. Another awful decision, irrespective of the opponents.

Now, I'm not saying Gardner was solely responsible for these tries nor I am saying he's the only player who makes these type of mistakes (both Smith and Calderwood were poor with their decision making as well in the WC), but they are mistakes and mistakes that a top winger shouldn't make.



I'm not discounting anything, I'm highlighting the ridiculousness of your claim that Raynor only runs 'sideways'.



By 'very rarely' I meant 'almost never'. To the point were the only example I can remember is him coming in to attempt to tackle Gidley last season, only for him to flick it out the back and leave Tyrer with a walk-in. This is in contrast with Gardner, who I've seen much less of in the same time and yet have seen make these mistakes much more often.

And as for the 'biased, one-eyed' comment, I'll freely admit that both Tom Briscoe and Calderwood make the same poor judgements far too often. Sing and Blacklock did as well, although less frequently, but still more often than Raynor.

Thanks for the patronisation as well.





I'll just pick some examples from the past season, using the highlights available on the SL website (I've got a good memory, but not good enough to remember every detail of every game for a team I don't support. I'm basing my opinion of Gardner's defensive frailties on what I remember feeling at the time, rather than recalling specifics).

Round 14, 79 minutes in, Gardner jumps the line to take Raguin, gets nowhere near and Greenshields wraps around to score. The were plenty of Saints players sliding across (Gidley managed to get outside Greenshields) so there would have been plenty of men to take Raguin who got the ball 10m inside of where Greenshields crossed the line, but Gardner's decision took away any chance of stopping the try. Had he stayed out, there would have been no room to attack and it would have taken a poor miss or a special piece of play to score.

If I was being picky, I'd say that in Round 17 against Bradford, six minutes in, he should have been wider, dragging Long out further. That would have mean Long could cover Hape and Gardner would not have had to come in, leaving Tadulala free. I can let him off that one, as Long shouldn't have let Hape get so far outside him, although I would have to question the communication as there was a lot of room left when there really didn't need to be, with eight Saints players on that side of the pitch against five Bradford attackers.

Round 18 against Leeds, after 63 minutes, Gardner comes in to take Senior (who the sliding defence would have got to), leaving Donald with an easy try when Gardner fails to make the tackle before the pass. There's doubt as to whether the slide would have stopped Senior, but all doubt about a try being scored was removed due to Gardner's poor decision.

A slightly odd one this, but that doesn't negate the poor quality decision made. Early on against Huddersfield in Round 26, with the play broken after a scrappy kick play, Huddersfield get two on two against Long and Gardner. Long has his man (in the centre channel) covered and Gardner comes in to take him as well, despite the only threat being from the winger directly opposite him. The centre passes a split second before Long completes the tackle and, with Gardner stacked in for no reason, the winger gets away and a try results.

The last example I'll give, 73 minutes into the CC final, Gardner comes in to make a tackle, fails to prevent the offload and a try is scored by Raynor. There were plenty of Saints defenders covering who would have got across to both Manu and Yeaman. If Gardner had stayed on Raynor, a try wouldn't have come as easily, but him coming in made in inevitable.

That's only four/five examples, but that is only half a season's worth and is only counting plays that lead directly to tries coming from the exact same mistake. For a team that doesn't concede many tries anyway, that is quite a lot to be letting in in such a short space of time by making identical poor decisions.

Either you have the memory of a university challenge contestant or you have been watching re-runs. I frankly cant be bothered watching us get our backsides given to us by the Ockers again. However, as I have said before, many of the chances created by the Antipoedeans was through their halves creating the overlap far too easily out wide, leaving Gardner with little alternative. The reality of the WC is that it proved to us that very few, if any of our players are as good as we believe. This is in terms of Gardner and to be frank, there isn't a British winger anywhere near the level of Gardner.



Nobody is suggesting that Gardner is a top winger. Britain does not possess a top winger anymore. What people are saying is that Gardner is the best we have, which he is, fairly comfortably.




Nonsense.




It is very clear what you are basing your opinion of Gardner on, its called bolloxx.




I don't recall your examples. However I recall watching Gardner since he joined the club. He makes barely any mistakes either defensively or offensively to be honest. It is perfectly natural for a winger to come inside to cover and be caught out occasionally, this will happen, particularly when as you have pointed out, you have Long as one of your inside defenders. Any odd error he does make is easily negated with his composure under the high ball, his work rate, his ability to hold his touchline and his fantastic ability to finish in the corner (which is the most important ability a winger can have and so few seem to have it anymore).

Anyway, it matters not. If you prefer the crab the fine, it is no skin off my nose. I will continue to watch the mistake ridden Gardner score bagloads and defend consistently well.

Fox and Calderwood? I've played in more big games than them.