I think the pack is fine, with probably more strength in depth than most teams. My concern is at centre where we only have Gelling and Sarginson fit at the moment. Thornley won't be back until April / May and I don't want to overplay Gildart despite him being a very good prospect. I suppose we could play Bateman or Thornley there if we get any injuries or even Charnley. In reality it's hard to keep an experienced centre in reserve.

I just don't think those props are the usual wane type of prop. They ain't big and rough like the ones you have lost in Taylor, dudson and pettyborne.

I don't think larne Patrick is best at prop, he's not big tough style prop, I think he's best in the second row. I'm not saying our props are great but I'd be little worried if I had the wigan props if I'm being totally honest.

Bateman would do very well in that position IMO.

I'm a bit surprised at Dudson though, thought he was better than Crosby with hit ups and tackles.

Mossop is injury prone and was never that good the first time around.

Crosby has been battered by Masoe twice now. What was it, 20 odd metres in the Grand Final he made ? Laughable.

McIlorum is huge for Wigan.

Tomkins looks a total turkey since he came back. Nothing to be feared.

Farrell and O'Loughlin very good players although O'Loughlin now has serious doubts on his ability to get on the field.

Like Tautai, he's a good signing. Patrick is very, very lightweight and I can see him struggling against the likes of our pack. Bateman a yard dog but good player. The rest are kids. Decent enough but nothing to be afraid of at all.

Taylor is a loss (when his heads right) but the other two have been below average in their time at Wigan and in Dudsons case looked to be going backwards rather then improving. We may be a bit short early doors and could see Sutton and Greenwood get a few games but both had good seasons last year when they played (Greenwood for Quins). Once Flower and Mossop are back we'll be fine and we'll probably see a couple of experienced guys sitting outside the 17.

What's Saints likely starting pack going to look like? And who adds the depth? Just curious how it looks in comparison.

I always thoughT Dudson was better than Crosby from what I'd seen, who knows what frame of mind flower will come back with and who knows how Mossop will hold up after basically a year out. Also weren't there murmurings that Sutton was leaving at the end of the year, I'd be surprised if he got much game time if so?

Saints likely pack and reserves:

Amor Roby Masoe
Vea Wilkin
LMS

Walmsley Richards Walker Savelio
Hohaia Charnock
Greenwood Flanagan Thompson Hand

I think it's agreeed on here it would be nice to get another forward in after losing a couple last year, but I also think it could be the year the kids like Richards and Thompson step up and really make the first team their own...

Oh I hope so, he plays so lateral and has a fear of taking the ball to the line. His kicking game is pretty inconsistent too! I don't think he has the creativity to do much in League

Amor
Roby
Walmsley
Wilkin
Vea
Thompson

LMS
Richards
Masoe
Greenwood
Walker
Savelio
Flanagan

Thompson and Richards will be first 17 players consistently this year. Thompson, in particular, is a star in the making, Savelio hopefully much more game time as well. Hohaia will cover Roby/Wellens likely a back row rotation as well.

Patrick is 16st 4lb, the same weight as Kyle Amor.

I well remember you telling all and sundry that Wigan would win nothing with Smith and Green as halfbacks, and that didn't turn out to bad did it?

I'm absolutely certain that you will find not one single Wigan fan who would agree with you on that one. Dudson had one decent game (at Magic against Leeds last year) in his time at Wigan. He consistently failed to manage even the basics and became a penalty machine, for example costing us the derby match at Saints in 2013. He is surplus to requirements, it's as simple as that. Crosby, Greenwood and Sutton have overtaken him in the pecking order.

Since last year we have lost Pettybourne (a big disappointment after his good showing at the World Cup), Dudson, Taylor (most will agree he could be a big miss) and James (honest but limited) to be replaced by Mossop (a question over fitness, but good enough to make the 2013 World Cup squad after being an integral part of a double winning team), Tautai (jury's out), Patrick (showed up well against us in the past but jury still out) and Greenwood has come back after a decent season in London.

Overall the props are certainly no worse than last season, with the second row options improved with the return of Tomkins (whose defence was a big improvement on Bateman's in the last month of the season).

I'm happy with the composition of our pack against yours. However whilst your halves are better on paper our three quarters are better IMO of course.

For me the two most important players are Roby and O'Loughlin. Any prolonged absence of either would severely damage either sides plans.

That said, I think there's nothing between Saints, Wigan and Wire (with Catalan a surprise outsider) for the trophies.

Dudson's garbage. Despite his massive size implying he's got potential, I've never seen him deliver an awful lot.

Patrick was a good acquisition, but I think he's a bit like LMS in that he's best deployed slightly away from the really heavy traffic.
Mossop will be good (perhaps very good) if he can stay fit.
Tautai is the big one for me. I've seen him look very good, but can he graft? If he can't, then maybe your set of props will be lacking in that area, especially is Mossop is injured.

Wasn't Ben Flower out of contract? Did you resign him?
I think he'd be a great signing for Saints, I'm not sure what the reaction would be, though!

Every year Wigan lose players and the Saints fans rub their hands with glee at the upcoming demise of the Wigan side. Yet despite losing these players, Wigan are always competitive and right up there competing for the trophies. Maybe they will be weaker this year but i would not be writing them off and I certainly see them as the biggest rivals along with Leeds for the trophies this year

I think its because more seems to be made of the palyers leaving than the ones coming in. No one cares about Tautai as he was only playing for Wakey, so isn't a big name signing, but he is a BIG signing. Fuck knows how they wangled the Patrick thing, but he's a massive step up from Jack Hughes.

Wane's signed so many props precisely to compete with Saints' front row. It's no surprise considering in both the game at Wigan and the Grand Final, Wigan constantly had to go wide to make ground. Their entire prop rotation made the same amount of metres as Luke Thompson at Old Trafford. They've no answer to Saints up front, especially Masoe's aggression, who has really set the tone on our last two meetings. Wane has signed three props to try and redress the balance. To beat us, they'll have to compete with Amor (who one laughable Wigan dimwit this time last year announced wouldn't get in the Wigan 17

), Walmsley, Masoe, Richards and Thompson. I have a feeling Savelio will play a bit this year as well. We'll hopefully see Walker come on a bit more as well and Vea will spend a large part playing the centre of the field as well. Saints' front row contingent is unrivalled in SL IMHO, regardless of who Wigan have signed. Wigan's back row is good though, although Tomkins has it all to prove.

As for their backs. Their halves are as pedestrian as it gets in Smith and Williams. Gelling is an absolute turnip. I don't care what they say, he's a waste of a shirt. Their wingers are quality though whilst Sarginson has improved but has to find a centre's line for me before he's anything more than decent. Bowen is an error prone shambles as well.

Crosby is vastly under-rated IMO and as already pointed out not a single Wigan fan would agree with Dudson being better then him. I expect big things from Crosby this year who really looks to be developing year on year.

Not a great deal in the packs between both clubs really. I certainly wouldn't swap and I'd take our back row options all day long but the props are pretty even and if Roby starts this year as he finishes last he'll make a real difference to your side.

Some good battles ahead this year I reckon.

Props pretty even. You've got to laugh.

Crosby, who managed 20 odd metres in the biggest game of the season and spent half the time on his after Masoe had nailed him, Flower who so enraged at Masoe's early aggression committed an offence that should have seen him locked up and Clubb, who managed 60 odd metres (half that of Thompson and Richards). Indeed, Wigan's props are a scary proposition



Placing a lot of hope in a Huddersfield bencher and an import from Wakefield are Wigan. Mossop has never been up to anything anyway, he wouldn't make the Saints 17.

Steady on, pal. There's nothing like setting yourself up for a fall.

Honestly don't care. Sometimes it's necessary to provide a balance to the amount of hyperbole that comes out of Wiganer's mouths. They're in a world of their own with their views most of the time.

Every Wiganer is awesome. Everyone else is . That pretty much sums them up.

I've always seen Crosby as a bigger version of Clough. It's no slight but just nothing to put the fear of God in me; my impression may be coloured as my outstanding memory of him is Masoe running over the top of him (the one and only time it happened!)

I think our back row options are underrated - admittedly Wilkin is marmite amongst Saints fans let alone anyone else, but LMS is judged on his form in the front row, despite putting some fantastic performances in the back row which can hopefully be more consistent now he's moved "permanently", Vea comes with virtually no rep but should fill Manus hole very well, and Thompson could be one of the best in the country if he continues his development of last season. were lacking the depth of last season, but we should be just as good as the pack that got us through the playoffs, which is a scary thought!

I think Wigan and Saints are going to be the team to beat next year, and there's not a lot to choose between the two imo

Go and watch the game at the Dave Whelan stadium between us earlier in the season. Crosby spent more time on his than he did stood up trying to tackle Masoe. Overrated lard and if he played for us, they wouldn't rate in the slightest. Since he plays for them, he's obviously AWESOME.

If you read the posts on this thread from those of us who support Wigan I don't know how you come to that conclusion. I have been respectful of Saints as have the others and absolutely no-one is writing them off.

Strangely, if you care to look back at the posts on here after the Easter derby I was one who said that Saints shouldn't be written off just as most of their own fans, maybe even yourself, were doing.

I understand that most teams have their share of swivel eyed loons, but I generally find on here that debate is considered and respectful.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Wilkin gets on this season, given that he should be spending all of his game time in the back row (assuming he isn't displaced by LMS, Thompson and Vea, that is). I know that not everyone agrees with me, but I think we've forgotten how effective he can be in the second row.

You're all respectful of Saints and aren't writing us off ?



Well, thanks for your humility. It's not like St Helens are the second most successful RL club in British history and the current champions and league leaders within the competition now, is it ? I offer my eternal thanks and appreciation that you're so respectful of such a club and are still giving us a chance this season.



Genuine question, have you ever heard yourselves or read back some of the crap you lot post ? You're all ing insane.

Props are 'pretty even' but Wigan are comfortably better in the back row and well ahead in the backs although you're humble enough to acknowledge that Saints' halves look good 'on paper'.





Crackpots, the lot of you. It's not like Saints finished above you, won two of the three meetings last year and were crowned champions despite missing our entire playmaking contingent as well as our best prop for most of the season.

Here's the truth.

Bowen is woeful and wouldn't get in the Saints side either over Lomax or Wellens (even at his age). Your wingers are superb. Gelling is crap. Sarginson full of potential but lots to learn. Percival is the best centre on either team. Your halves aren't fit to be mentioned in the same breath as St Helens'. Your props have it all to prove. You rely astronomically on McIlorum. Your back row is good. Farrell top class and O'Loughlin the best player in the comp. Joel Tomkins has shown NOTHING to put him on the pedestal you lot do.

That's about it. You'll be up there again and it'll be a real tussle between us as both sides are very evenly matched. Wigan will have to change their game for me this year to beat Saints. Can't keep playing on the edges and expect to beat Saints. At some point you'll have to take us on up front.

Fair enough mate. You are entitled to your opinions and you have plenty of them.

One or two hostages to fortune in that lot. You do seem to see things in black and white. "Gelling is crap" , "Bowen is woeful" , "Tomkins has shown nothing" etc etc. Still - as Offside Monkey warned you - you do seem to be setting yourself up for a fall.

Add to that that our two halfbacks are pedestrian!! Williams is quicker than most SL halfbacks and certainly than Walsh or Burns. Add to that we have the fastest halfback in Superleague just waiting his chance (which he will get this season). Hampshire is the fastest player at Wigan. At 17 he finished 5th in the Super League fastest man comp. Pace is not a problem at Wigan.

I remember him telling us that we would win nothing with Smith and Green at half back.

IMO the best half backs this season are at Catalan, and if they can sort their away form out they will be pushing hard for a top four spot.