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| Is this the new Dennis Moran?
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| Quote ="McClennan"Is this the new Dennis Moran?'"
Hopefully
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| Quote ="McClennan"Is this the new Dennis Moran?'"
As long as he's not a Tricky Trindall we'll be reet.
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| Quote ="McClennan"Leeds have won several Grand Finals with Burrow and McGuire, who were given time to develop into the roles. I don't think either of them has as much potential as either Gaskell or Lomax. Why are you not prepared to give our halves the same opportunity as Leeds gave their's?'"
It's not that I wouldnt give them time - and if both showed the same amount of potential that Burrows and McGuire did then I would be foolish to argue against it - its just that I only see Lomax as having that potential. Last year the majority of supporters were blown away with having a local half back pairing - and quite rightly - however I have never seen what Gaskell brings to the party - and the more I see of him the more ingrained that opinion is becoming. Weirdly enough I have been watching both Lomax and Gaskell from amateur days (my son played in the same age range) and while Lomax was always one of the standouts at that age I cannot even remember Gaskell being a threat - infact in his own team there were more threatening players, but I dont let that cloud my opinion and different people mature at different times - I have yet to see Gaskell mature, and the place to mature certainly isnt in the first team at saints - if he gets to play in the next 3 games and shows as much potential as even Wheeler (till the Wigan game), let alone Lomax then by all means I will eat my words - but that seems a long shot to me.
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| Quote ="Smurf"When? His first two games at a new club in a new country whilst Wellens was still injured? Hardly worthy of judgement to be fair.'"
Yes those are the games - apparently he is a world cup winning full back - if he was truely deserving of that accolade then not only would he have impressed in those games and Wellens may never have gotten back in. However the overall opinion (if my memory servers me right) and definately mine was that he was not up to the job at Full Back and he was signed as a half back lets have a look at him there - history has shown that he isnt up to much in that position either.
Good players - especially those professing to be good enough to take a position in the best team in the world - do not come into a club and play poorly - they play to their best ability so that they earn immediate respect from the rest of the team.
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| Gaskell is no world beater, but he combines better with Lomax and runs the game better than Hohaia does from the halves and has a much better kicking game than Hohaia. Watch the quality of some of our tries at Wakefield when Gaskell was involved (Wellens 2nd try and Meli's hat trick try in particular) and the quality is much better. Sometimes he's overly greedy but when he does pass wide, he's quicker at doing it than Hohaia and naturally commits defenders and brings others into the game. He's got alot to learn, but him and Lomax are currently our best options at 6 and 7 IMO.
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| Quote ="McClennan"Is this the new Dennis Moran?'"
When the goons signed Moran he was coming off a top season for the broncoes when he was challenging for MoS. they then ruined him as they did the rest of the half backs they signed in that era. Green is a pudding, full stop.
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| I often wonder why Gaskell's detractors compare him in his first and second year to some of SL best half backs in their pomp. Of course he isn't as good as them as you remember them at their best, he isn't anywhere near his own best, never mind anyone else's.
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| Quote ="Billinge_Lump"I often wonder why Gaskell's detractors compare him in his first and second year to some of SL best half backs in their pomp. Of course he isn't as good as them as you remember them at their best, he isn't anywhere near his own best, never mind anyone else's.'"
Spot on.
IMO the only way he will get to his best is by being played but Rush just doesn't seem to want to play him.
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"Spot on.
IMO the only way he will get to his best is by being played but Rush just doesn't seem to want to play him.'"
I guess because Rush took a failing team, and by bringing in a settled line up, including Hohaia at 6, has turned it into a better team. Still not good enough, but the fact that he has improved them shows that he has had some success.Would he have been so successful with Gaskell at 6? We will never know. But it will be interesting to see if Brown rates him highly enough to start ahead of Hohaia, or whether he still believes that none of our halfs are good enough, and brings in fresh blood.
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| Quote ="SomersetSaint"I guess because Rush took a failing team, and by bringing in a settled line up, including Hohaia at 6, has turned it into a better team. '"
We have won games but we might have done that anyway, regardless of who was in charge. Are we a better team under Rush? No.
Quote Would he have been so successful with Gaskell at 6? We will never know. '"
We got to a Grand Final with Gaskell at 6 last year so if we hadn't been as 'successful' with Gaskell at 6 this season then chances are that would have been because Rush isn't good enough as a coach (which frankly I suspect is the case anyway).
Quote But it will be interesting to see if Brown rates him highly enough to start ahead of Hohaia, or whether he still believes that none of our halfs are good enough, and brings in fresh blood.'"
I doubt he'll be allowed to bring in fresh blood in the halves. We have enough of them already! We're crying out for a couple of feisty props but it's unlikely we will get them either. We do have a turnstyle of a centre coming to join us though so that should be, er, great.
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| Quote ="SomersetSaint"I guess because Rush took a failing team, and by bringing in a settled line up, including Hohaia at 6, has turned it into a better team. Still not good enough, but the fact that he has improved them shows that he has had some success.Would he have been so successful with Gaskell at 6? We will never know. But it will be interesting to see if Brown rates him highly enough to start ahead of Hohaia, or whether he still believes that none of our halfs are good enough, and brings in fresh blood.'"
I understand why the initial change was made, and I understand that they went with a consistent team for a period to settle things down during a turbulent time for the club. However I think it's fairly obvious now that the combination with Lomax and Hohaia is not working, nor do I think that it's really looking any better than it did at the beginning. Lomax is less effective than he was, Hohaia looks better at 9 whenever he's played there.
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| I think it's purely about defence. Lance is a much better defensive player than Gaskell and I think that is why he holds down a position.
Rush had to steady the ship and to do that he took out what defensive frailties he could and he is sticking with it.
Whilst Gaskell is better going forwards than Lance, in defence he is no comparison.
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| Quote ="St. Etrigan"Weirdly enough I have been watching both Lomax and Gaskell from amateur days (my son played in the same age range) and while Lomax was always one of the standouts at that age I cannot even remember Gaskell being a threat - infact in his own team there were more threatening players, but I dont let that cloud my opinion and different people mature at different times - I have yet to see Gaskell mature, and the place to mature certainly isnt in the first team at saints - if he gets to play in the next 3 games and shows as much potential as even Wheeler (till the Wigan game), let alone Lomax then by all means I will eat my words - but that seems a long shot to me.'"
Interesting that. I'm not just saying this but I was chatting with a guy earlier in the season who said the opposite about Gaskell. Not that he was a standout but that he always looked like he had something extra in him, which is also how I see it. At this moment in time he certainly has more about his game than Matty Smith did, who is now playing at the probable minor premiers. If Smith can do that (and I'm not suggesting he's the level we should be aiming at) then why don't we give Gaskell the chance that Smith couldn't get (because we had a great incumbent scrum half, something we appear to be complaining about not having here on a weekly basis)? If these guys don't get the opportunity we're never going to know and after Gaskell's play towards the end of the last season I'd like us to develop him further.
I know nothing of his off the field, training ethics etc. I respect the coaches' right to pick their team based on what they see during the week. I'm not arguing that he must be in the team no matter what. However, if he is meeting his training and off the field commitments then I'm disappointed that we've not tried to bring him on more in the first team. Again, if the coaches have not picked him because they wanted him to develop away from the first team, where fan criticism can be ruthless, then that's fair enough too. If there's a freezing out of him going on then I truly hope that gets resolved because it serves neither Saints nor Lee to be dragging out arguments this long.
On the basis of what I've seen him do on the field he's a player I would like us to develop.
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| Quote ="McClennan"Interesting that. I'm not just saying this but I was chatting with a guy earlier in the season who said the opposite about Gaskell. Not that he was a standout but that he always looked like he had something extra in him, which is also how I see it. At this moment in time he certainly has more about his game than Matty Smith did, who is now playing at the probable minor premiers. If Smith can do that (and I'm not suggesting he's the level we should be aiming at) then why don't we give Gaskell the chance that Smith couldn't get (because we had a great incumbent scrum half, something we appear to be complaining about not having here on a weekly basis)? If these guys don't get the opportunity we're never going to know and after Gaskell's play towards the end of the last season I'd like us to develop him further.'"
After reading this part of your post I think I realise exactly what my issue is with Gaskell - it would be that he may or may not be the best we currently have (given time who knows) it just that I dont see him being of the calibre to be the type of half back I want to see playing for Saints. I think that given the current place we are at that we are far more likely to accept good as being "good enough" where we should be aiming for great (if its any concellation I also think that Wigan have gone down the "good enough" route for next season).
We have been blessed with 2 great standoff's over the last 10 years in Pryce and Martyn, but we have also had our fair share of good and average ones too. Unfortunately at this time Hohaia isnt proving to be even good, so it opens the door for a good player to come through - personally I think that player should be Wheeler and not Gaskell, but keeping him injury free seems to be a full time job at the minute.
Quote ="McClennan"I know nothing of his off the field, training ethics etc. I respect the coaches' right to pick their team based on what they see during the week. I'm not arguing that he must be in the team no matter what. However, if he is meeting his training and off the field commitments then I'm disappointed that we've not tried to bring him on more in the first team. Again, if the coaches have not picked him because they wanted him to develop away from the first team, where fan criticism can be ruthless, then that's fair enough too. If there's a freezing out of him going on then I truly hope that gets resolved because it serves neither Saints nor Lee to be dragging out arguments this long.
On the basis of what I've seen him do on the field he's a player I would like us to develop.'"
It may be that they are looking to him as a fullback (I understand he has been playing there in the A team) but he doesnt seem to have above average pace, his defence is suspect but he does have halfbacks ball skills and an eye for a gap - so work on his deficiencies and build on the rest of his game - who knows it could work. I like the idea of local lads playing for Saints - if he can be made into a great player no matter what his position then go for it - but do it right.
On the point about possibly being frozen out I agree on that - it does nothing for the team, for the coach's reputation or the player - I dont like to see this type of behaviour anywhere in life.
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| This is officially the most ridiculous thread ever. "Wigan have managed to sign 2 random halfbacks for next season so therefore there must be plenty of good players out there in the league after all"? WTF???? Is this a windup? The fact that Wigan have been forced to downgrade so severely from Leuluai/Deacon & Finch to Smith & Green in just 1 season proves nothing except for incontrovertibly proving the fact that there just simply aren't sufficient quality players out there. Wigan wouldn't have blown their noses over either of these players 3 or 4 years ago, just as we'd never have considered going into a season with the likes of Lomax, Gaskell and Hohaia as our first choice halves back then either. The quality of the league and the available talent in it means that we and the pies just have to make do with mediocrity for an indefinite while instead.
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| Quote ="Northampton_Saint"This is officially the most ridiculous thread ever. "Wigan have managed to sign 2 random halfbacks for next season so therefore there must be plenty of good players out there in the league after all"? WTF???? Is this a windup? The fact that Wigan have been forced to downgrade so severely from Leuluai/Deacon & Finch to Smith & Green in just 1 season proves nothing except for incontrovertibly proving the fact that there just simply aren't sufficient quality players out there. Wigan wouldn't have blown their noses over either of these players 3 or 4 years ago, just as we'd never have considered going into a season with the likes of Lomax, Gaskell and Hohaia as our first choice halves back then either. The quality of the league and the available talent in it means that we and the pies just have to make do with mediocrity for an indefinite while instead.'"
They may not be great, but they are significantly better than what we currently have. Wigan will again be superior to us next season.
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| Quote ="Saddened!"They may not be great, but they are significantly better than what we currently have. Wigan will again be superior to us next season.'"
Maybe, but to me it makes a lot more sense to persevere with the couple of good young players we already have who have potentially massive upsides with a year or 2's more experience behind them, rather then spending huge amounts of cash on a bidding war for a pair of average performers at best. There's no point in us signing a half for next season and sticking Lomax or Gaskell back into limbo indefinitely unless they will be a quantum leap better than what we have to work with currently i.e. Brough, Chase etc. If Wigan had Gaskell and Lomax on their books, do you think they'dve bothered with signing Smith and Green?
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| Quote ="Northampton_Saint"Maybe, but to me it makes a lot more sense to persevere with the couple of good young players we already have who have potentially massive upsides with a year or 2's more experience behind them, rather then spending huge amounts of cash on a bidding war for a pair of average performers at best. There's no point in us signing a half for next season and sticking Lomax or Gaskell back into limbo indefinitely unless they will be a quantum leap better than what we have to work with currently i.e. Brough, Chase etc. I=#FF0000f Wigan had Gaskell and Lomax on their books, do you think they'dve bothered with signing Smith and Green?'"
Yes they would probably still have signed one of them. Just as Leeds did when they signed Dunemann in 2003 whilst having Burrow, Sinfield and McGuire in their squad.
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"Yes they would probably still have signed one of them. Just as Leeds did when they signed Dunemann in 2003 whilst having Burrow, Sinfield and McGuire in their squad.'"
OK then - let's modify the question slightly to what it should probably have been in the first place: would Wigan have signed Green or Smith if they already had Lomax, Gaskell, Wheeler (still with an outside chance of fulfilling his potential) and Hohaia (who we're stuck with hovering around the halves in some capacity) on their books? The answer to that question is no.
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| Quote ="Northampton_Saint"OK then - let's modify the question slightly to what it should probably have been in the first place: would Wigan have signed Green or Smith if they already had Lomax, Gaskell, Wheeler (still with an outside chance of fulfilling his potential) and Hohaia (who we're stuck with hovering around the halves in some capacity) on their books? The answer to that question is no.'"
No, because if Wigan had those players, Wheeler would have been released and Hohaia would have been moved to fullback (Assuming they were also cursed with a lead weight at fullback).
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| Quote ="Northampton_Saint"OK then - let's modify the question slightly to what it should probably have been in the first place: would Wigan have signed Green or Smith if they already had Lomax, Gaskell, Wheeler (still with an outside chance of fulfilling his potential) and Hohaia (who we're stuck with hovering around the halves in some capacity) on their books? The answer to that question is no.'"
I see you have changed your argument.
The answer is still yes because two of those (take your pick) would have been binned. Stick to watching MK Dons you probably understand that game better.
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"I see you have changed your argument.
The answer is still yes because two of those (take your pick) would have been binned. Stick to watching MK Dons you probably understand that game better.'"
Ooooooohhhhh!!!! Get her.... Taking a break from trolling to launch unprovoked personal attacks on your betters, eh? Good to see you willing to try new things at your age. Good luck and I hope it goes well for you.
Anyway, my original and current argument remains - there is no point in Saints signing any second rate half-backs and we simply aren't in the desperate position for next season of having noone left to play the positions as you were a few weeks ago. We don't need to feverishly sign the first 2 average bodies that come onto the market on inflated fees as a desperation panic measure as you've had to. We can manage for a season or 2 with what we already have until the top notch half that we are in a position to be able to wait for finally becomes available (hopefully from within).
Stick that in your pipe and do something appropriate with it.
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| who are they going to learn from ? I mean they will gain experience but i feel they would need to be playing alongside an already top class half back to really realise their full potential
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| Quote ="Dezzie_D_Wireledgend"who are they going to learn from ? I mean they will gain experience but i feel they would need to be playing alongside an already top class half back to really realise their full potential'"
Maybe, but that top-class half definitely isn't either Green or Smith... Smith would have been a very good signing for us if we could have gotten him cheap on a 2-year deal but that was never going to be able to happen with Wigan's interest in him. At the end of the day we've got Wello, Wilkin and Hohaia who have all the experience in the world playing pivot roles at the very highest level - they're a better well of knowledge for a young half to learn from than most teams in the competition have to call on.
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