Ooo good reply, touche sir! See this is the kind of debate we need more often on here!

TBH the only answer I personally can wholeheartedly give for retaining Gilmour in that respect is as someone else stated, his 'old head' experience and the loss of both his and several others were they all to leave at the end of this year.

As much as he brings on the pitch with his deceptive pace, line breaking and physical tackling abilities, he brings double with his big game experience, cool head, and knowledge of the game. Sometimes these are as valuable as the things being young and fresh can bring, if not more.

Not wanting to jump on everyone's bandwagon when they rib you about Matty Smith, but it is the things I mention above that made DA pick Longy in the 2007 GF and many people on hear agree with the decision. With the exception of perhaps Flannery and arguably Wilkin non of the back rowers you named have as much of these things as Gilly and that would be a big loss.

I did mean in terms of inexperience. If one or two of the starting 17 get injured leading up to a big game, i feel we would struggle to win the game as we would have to put a kid in. As you say, hopefully this will give us a head start for the future, but if as is been said, we have cap space available, then why not keep Gilmour and bring in a few players that will give us more strength in depth and it would also allow us to us the kids a bit more wisely rather than be forced to use them, when we may not want to.

Because it is there to be used, and if we can afford to use it then why not have the extra option of Gilmour to give us more depth in the squad.

Soliola will play at Centre, Puletua will play at prop because we're short at prop as it is. Unless we sign a couple of props (and there isn't alot available) then Puletua will feature there.

Wilkin, Clough and Flannery would first choice by your reckoning. After that it's youngsters. Whilst, we need to give youngsters a chance, Gilmour offers great experience, quality and utility value to the squad. That is a vital commodity in any team. He will aid the development of the younger players not hinder it.

If you look at it in another perspective where would you place Gilmour in that list as a true back rower, at worst I,ve got him placed 3rd, so why let him go.......or is it an ageist thing.

Indeed, he's in a position where the youngsters will get gametime at some point due to injuries and the like. He's not blocking their progress in the way Long, for example, would be.

Indeed Sia will play centre but he could play at second row if needed. Likewise Tony P, unless i'm mistaken he already spells there anyway.

I'd go with:

Wilkin
Flannery
Clough

Gilmour for me is the 4th best that we have but from what i've seen i'm a big fan of Ashurst and think he should play a lot more next year, coming off the bench.

I agree that he has a hell of a lot of experience that would be useful and if we gave him another contract so long as it is only one year, i wouldn't have any problems at all.

The cap saved could be used on improving contracts and/or signing a prop.

just because the cap is set at a particular level doesnt mean we have to spend right up to it:

1) we might not have the cash to spend the full amount
2) we have been caught out in the past with unexpected bonus payments which have taken us over the top
3) we should always retain some space for contingengy cover, or in case we get the opportunity to bring a "star" in. If someone like Darren Lockyer made himself available for a couple of months at the end of the year, I would expect Saints to be in the running for him - and to do that we would need some salary cap space. Likewise, if we lost Graham, Hargreaves and Fa'asavalu to long term injury now - we would need to bring in another prop from somewhere, so need some cap space for that.

Gilmour third or at worst fourth. I agree Ashurst has been good this year and for the future we must ensure he, and others, aren't kept waiting so long that they become disgruntled.

But in the here and now, Gilmour is a lot better than any of the youngsters on that list. If we can afford him, we should ensure he stays.

I suppose the other argument is that Gilmour has in fact been playing centre for a lot of the season and with the signing of Soliola and the retention of Gidley he has already been replaced.

I do think Gilmour is a quality player but he covers a number of areas where we have a lot of young talent at the moment. I think that Dixon and Ashurst both look like they are ready to play more games next season while Wheeler and Dean can cover quite well at centre.

On the other hand what is our salary cap situation? We are 80k under (reported amount we had to one side for Carvell) this season and Long and maybe even Cayless and KC going out.

At the moment we only have Soliola and the 3 young players improved contracts to increase our out goings. We may not need to release Gilmour on the basis of the salary cap as we may have enough room for him anyway.

So incase you had not worked it out yet i am pretty spilt over this.

You make some good points there but just to focus on this one for now, can we still do this? I thought the league had brought in some kind of ruling following the Andrew Johns/Warrington deal?

they have!! You can't do it!!

Thought so

yup, the general deal is if a player comes in for a month on say £5000, his salary for cap purposes is counted as 12 x £5000 or £60,000.

Worry not, Lee will be plying his trade over on yorkshire next year

That's really rather vague, I mean in a way he already does a few games a season at least.

I agree with your sentiments, but Long is definitely going and he's likely to be joined by Cayless and maybe Cunningham. That's potentially 3 big earners leaving with room already available on the salary cap from this season.

Now, I've no doubt we'll renew contracts for some of the younger guys, but I still think we'll have room to bring in a good quality player whether Gilly leaves or not.

Strong rumour he's HKR bound next season.

From Hull KR...

Well, they do have the biggest and best rumour mill in the game...

Rumour mill, away following, distance from stand to pitch...

I think you should extend it to a four year deal, along with Cunningham, Cayless and Meli.

Back from your hols then? Its been an eventful couple of weeks

I knew about the Hock incident on the Monday 16th before we left (two and a half weeks ago) I posted it on the Wigan site but we decided to remove it after around 15 mins, as it was then very much a well informed rumour, but it came from the reliable source that I have PMd you about before.

Great holiday in Skala, Kefolontia. Found a bar to watch all the RL games, they thought they had a nutter in on Sunday watching the HKR v Wigan game.

Gilly will be joining 3 of his old team mates next year back in yorkshire