Ok, I would take issue with a few of your choices, but you support my point. From the Goons you would keep 9




From Saints you would keep 13


Now maybe this is tinged with Saints specs, but the fact remains that our squad really is no worse than the Goons, but as a team, they are better by a fair distance. For me therefore, the difference is coaching, fitness, and everything that goes to turn a bunch of journeyman pros into a champion side. Wigan are better at Saints at that part of the club, and we need to recognise thqat the days of having an all star team are past, now we have to do the best with the players we have available.

I had this same argument early in the year when insane saints have made a massive mistake in signing Laffranchi who's a backrow to replace jammer.

I listed about 6 props that was off contract and moved clubs and the was (off the top of my head) about 15 props that joined other clubs.

Can't remember them a but off the top of my head - griffin, hill, Lauaki, gill dudson, Ben flower, Brent kite, Jason king, Andy lynch (went for fee), Bryce Gibbs.

The bulls signed at least one prop, London signed two props and can't be bothered thinking of others but the was 100% props avsilabke.

We were in for Griffin, Hill also went for a fee IIRC, it was the reason I was told we didn't go for him. Wire swooped and were willing to pay the fee.

Dudson and Flower have hardly played (and isn't one a second rower?) I wouldn't have touched Lauaki with a bargepole.

I'm not sure any of those others who we could have signed, seeing as we haven't any quota space and that discounts the Aussies you've named would have improved us at all tbh.

Hill's fee was the value of his contract and I'm sure I read it was in the region of £10,000. We could afford that surely. He's a player who is going to give Warrington at least 8 years of quality rugby if he keeps developing as he is now. It certainly wasn't the hundreds of thousands we paid for Scully back in the days when we wanted to win trophies.

We've just made a £2 million loss, maybe we couldn't.

One thing you need to take into consideration when comparing statistics with Wellens and Brett, is that TS plays Brett mostly in the big games against the best sides when its more difficult to score trys , make metres etc etc. Whereas Wellens has played most of your games which include the likes of Broncos, Widnes, Wakey & Cas against whom it is easier to make hay.

It has been rumoured that Saints offered Brett a 2 year contract before he resigned for Warrington. Who would you rather play FullBack for Saints, Wellens or Brett?

We did have a quota spot for a prop but it was taking up by Laffranchi who's a backrow.

I'm totally shocked that we replaced James Graham with laffranchci.

I totally agree we really should have brought in an all action front rower to replace who was the best Front Rower in Super League. That was a major blunder in my book.

are you lot still trying to convince your selves that player for player you have the better squad?

here my list:

tomkins
charnley
goulding been fantastic this season and is a true
carmont wish he was only 23 so he could carry on
pat richards when fit
finch
tommy
smith don't know why you lot don't rate him because looked very good so far and i wouldn't swap him for any of your halves
lima
McIlorum
mossop
hock
hansen
o'loughlin

and as you have included fringe players in your list

dudson
farrell
powell
hughes
thornley/gelling

but lima and tommy are leaving. finch hasn't signed for any one yet and carmont hasn't decided

are you lot still trying to convince your selves that player for player you have the better squad?

here my list:

tomkins
charnley
goulding been fantastic this season and is a true
carmont wish he was only 23 so he could carry on
pat richards when fit
finch
tommy
smith don't know why you lot don't rate him because looked very good so far and i wouldn't swap him for any of your halves
lima
McIlorum
mossop
hock
hansen
o'loughlin

and as you have included fringe players in your list

dudson
farrell
powell
hughes
thornley/gelling

but lima and tommy are leaving. finch hasn't signed for any one yet and carmont hasn't decided

We should have least got the best prop available.

Ive allways said Andy Lynch would have been ideal failing that Chris Hill......

Hull paid a big fee for lynch so he was a no go.

Hill in hindsight would have been perfect but nobody knows how a young prop coming from a lower league will adapt to super league.

Jason king or kite would have been ideal, both are top quality props and both offer good leadership.

They may not be cheating per se, but anyone looking at the depth and quality of Warrington's squad and the seemingly never ending stream of quality players they still continue to be able to bring in and fit under their cap might find cause to wonder how exactly they manage it... Either Warrington is an utterly spectacularly fabulous place to play RL in and players are happy to accept less of a wedge to go there than they could get at other clubs, or their accountants, HR and lawyers deserve Olympic Gold Medals...



Agreed - a desperation signing. But sadly further proof of the lack of available quality that we had to go out and pay a lot of money (ambition again anyone?) on a wild punt on a player to play a non-natural position to him as there was simply noone else available.



Disagree - Flanagan is a very good grafter who'll only get better under a non-clueless coach. LaFranchi has been a very good signing - maybe not the ultimate answer at prop but a fantastic signing nevertheless who'll do big things for us next season used properly.



Again: what players? We desperately need a half and frickin' Smith was the best player available for lawk's sake. I'm frankly more than happy that we didn't enter a bidding war over him as he just wouldn't have been worth it. We haven't got the money to pay a fee for Brough or Chase (even if the rumours of Cas wanting rid at a cut-price are true). We've no quota for an Antipodean (curse the skies for Hohaia again). Who else is there? The reason we panic-signed Hohaia is that there just isn't anybody. Criticise the reliance on the youth policy if you like, but giving another season to see what Brown can make of Wheeler and Gaskell is by far our best option right now.

True. That's down to coaching/tactics, training/fitness and psychology/motivation, 3 areas we've been way behind the curve on for a long, long time. It is not down to basic player quality of player. Only the basic superior quality of many of our players has kept us in the top 4 and in trophy contention since DA left. How many other first-team squads in SL could have finished 3rd last season and 4th this with the kind of injuries we suffered last year and the appallingly limited tactics this? Warrington and noone else, and we've established that we simply don't have the money with 2 million a year losses and a brand new stadium to compete with their bottomless pockets and loophole-finding. Put Hock or Carvell into our setup and they'd look demotivated plodders lacking aggression in big games that you'd be screaming for us to be rid of in no time. Put Wilkin into either of the W's setups and you'd be enthusing about him as the kind of player Saints need to be showing the ambition to go out and sign inside six months. Wholesale mass personnel changes are simply just not the answer - making the most of what we have most definitely is.

*sigh*



Go away please - I can't be d after past head-to-wall interfaces with you to waste my time trying to have a debate with you...

The players can be individual world beaters but without a top coach they are just a bunch of lads running around without a clue not too disimilar to what we saw against Warrington this week.

Listening to Joynt on SLSM this week it was great to hear him talk about Hughes, McRae, Hanley, Millward. Inspiring coaches! DA was an inspirational coach also. The coach will always set apart the best from the almost theres. Look at Warrington with Cullen and Lowes, they were going nowhere but had the resources (Simon Moran) to bring on good players. That has completely changed under Smith. Leeds too, before Smith (again) and McLennan they had minor success with Murray and disaster under Bell and Powell. Since DA left we have been the almosts, granted we lost our golden generation in the process. Potter was an almost, Simmons was a never. Rush/KC will be a never too. I dont like saying it but i can see Brown being the almost. Watching a programme about Mal Meninga on Sky showed that he is the inspiration this side/town/fan base needs. A team that combines the flamboyance of the Millward era with the steel of Anderson and a passion mainly for winning.

A revamp is needed from the top down. A head over heart scenario. Wellens has to go, Gardner has to go, Flannery is gone, Hohaia should join him. Magennis will never be good enough, Meli gets a stay of execution, Shenton has shipped off already. Yes we missed out on big signings like Hill, Ellis, Lynch. But we needed to stay out of the fee-paying medium risk market because of the investment we were making off the field.
We have a ground owned by US. A state of the art facility designed specifically for St Helens RLFC. Speccies will moan and groan about how their money is spent on god awful players giving us mediocre rugby but as cold hearted as it sounds id much rather be stood at Langtree Park than Knowsley Road. KR had its teams, its traditions, its history. It also had its leaks, its rust, its lack of bogs and structual damage that was destroying the club from its very soul. Heck we didnt even take money from the burger vans! Times got tough, speccies got annoyed the new stadium plans were taking forever to come through and the world crashed. I feel for EMc because he had to make a choice, the ground or the team. Being the businessman he is and the lover of Saints i didnt envy his decision. He rightly chose the stadium, so what if we get beat in Grand Finals, there'll be more. Yeah they hurt and its painful to watch teams creep up on us and our past dominance. I'll look at Bradford and think that could have been us, i'll look back to Wigan and think they had their "success" and they went through a dry spell.

We were blessed with Long, Sculthorpe, Newlove, Iro, Albert, Lyon, Gidley, Shiels, Cunningham, Martyn, Joynt, Sullivan et al but so were Wigan with Offiah, Edwards et al and so are Leeds now with Burrow, McGuire, Sinfield, Peacock etc. Our time will come around again, we now have the stadium we wanted so we can start to build a team to make history once again. Its a long process but when it comes good, which it will, then we'll be winning in pretty much every way. But first, looking past the upcoming Brown era, EMc needs to start convincing Meninga that St Helens is lovely in the summer time because the Saints legacy begins with him at the helm.

Feel free to ridicule!

What's there to ridicule?

Is this notion that we've had to cut costs due to the stadium genuine? Are we spending less than the cap currently? I've seen no suggestion from the club that we are. I've always thought we've taken our eye off the ball in terms of the squad because of the work on the stadium, which obviously and rightly took priority, but it doesn't look like actual spending on the playing side has diminished, just the care in ensuring it's spent well?

Well we gave new contracts to the likes of Lomax, Wheeler, Foster, Wilkin etc over the last few years so I can see us operating toward the top of the cap. We do have players who I wouldn't pick myself but a good portion of this situation is down to poor management choices and the poor recruitment choices they have made.

I hope against hope that Brown will shake things up, but my optimism has been tempered slightly with the re-signing of Wellens.

I'd love to hear an honest assessment of that from Eamon. Not the official club statement where it praises him and calls him the best fullback in the world, but hear him candidly tell us why they've done it. Sentimentality is the only reason I can think of, yet we've shown absolutely none of that to any player I can remember in the past. Do they really intend to play him at fullback for another season when he's clearly physically and mentally broken now? He's the complete opposite of the backs Brown normally goes for. Turner could be argued to be a classic Brown signing, pacy, powerful and youthful, so I can understand that one despite his deficiencies, but Wello just doesn't fit.

Brown likes to play people out of position to try and bring different elements out of their game, he also likes his hookers in numbers. So how about this line up

Makinson
Turner
Wellens
Jones
Meli
Lomax
Gaskell
Perry
Roby
TP
Manu
La Franki
Wilkin

LMS
Another prop
Lance
Clough

I think we we seeing what 5 years of poor or no recruitment can do to a team, we are no longer the entertainers, we depend on good go forward to lay the platform for robes to do his stuff or we need penalties.

We can no longer go the length of the field with the backs we have, I doubt any could do the length without getting caught. The backs are basically poor, we've go no back that can make a break or even make anything happen. I'd say they are the worst set of backs I've seen play for saints since I've watched saints. This lot couldn't even lace the boots of the likes of Tanner, Quirk, hunte, loughlin, Neil Holding, tea Ropati, Save Lyon, Darren Bloor, Vievers, mark Bailey, Gus o'donnel, Shane cooper etc.

We've lost some worldclass backs over the super league era, the likes of Newlove, Iro, Gidley, Lyon, Long, Scully Goulding and other top players like Sullivan, Albert, Martyn but we've never replaced them with quality, I know it's near impossible to replace Newlove, Long, Lyon, Scully etc but we should be getting the next best we can.

McManus brainwashed saints fans that we was going with youth, telling us it's the only way forward, telling us we've got the best youth in the country but I'm sorry, that was total tripe, it was us doing it on the cheap! Fair enough, we had a new stadium to pay for but why not just tell the truth? Where is this youth now? We are full of player 30yrs old plus!

I said the lack of recruitment would come back and bite us but I got the usual response on here by the brainwashed was we've got all these great kids so we don't need to bring players in, yeah right!

To be fair though last year was the first year outside the top 2. This is what I mean by unrealistic expectations of a sporting cycle.

Look at the down years at other clubs and look at the years of our slim pickings. There is no comparison.

We were always going to have to come down from winning titles, what happened to the likes of Wigan, Hull, Bradford after their glory days.

If this is our down time then fair enough, but lets not get all amature dramatic and believe we have been hard done to in this time. Where is our brush with relegation, where is our time not making finals and not even looking likely to get close.

For our poorest side since the start of SL, then 3rd is pretty much astounding not discraceful.

Well said