And beating the favourites twice in the play offs and dumping then out.

We couldn't have released Flannery and gone for Waterhouse?? Or released Flannery and gone for ANY NRL player??

Making US the favourites for the final, then.

No we couldnt as flannery is off quota.

Ah yes, I forgot. But this doesn't mean we couldn't go for someone in the lower leagues or attempt to poach someone else's academy prospect. I doubt Flannery is playing for peanuts. To be honest, I'm not particularly bothered by Flannery. I'd rather we had someone else - but at least he isn't a defensive liability or a parasite like Gardner.

Nope.

Its quite simple you can have five players who where not trained in europe.

Flannery and meli are not binded by this as they were already in SL pre the new rules.

So its not as simple as get some one. To get some one we have to lose someone. Its easy to say we dont need lance now but when he was signed we were in a shocking position in the halfbacks. You cant do contracts with hindsight. Who could we get now? If then we have to let sia go next year.

Gardner had been playing impressive this season up to his injury, i think it was the back end of last season his wheels fell off.

by his standards maybe. Makinson is a better winger by a long way now, let alone when he gets more experience. Foster is as good but brings his kicking too. Ade should be our reserve winger next year and i hope his new contract reflects that.

As stated, this doesn't mean we can't go domestic (such as Westerman or Ratchford). The key question is - if Meli, Flannery or Gardner were playing for, say, Widnes - would we show the slightest interest in any of them?



I never mentioned losing Hohaia. Indeed, we are going to need him. As far as I am concerned we are STILL in a dodgy position insofar as the fullback position. Wellens will almost certainly start AGAIN next season - despite being shot for the best part of two, possibly three. If Hohaia is coming to play in the halves who do we have as a bona fide fullback replacement? Makinson is a prospect. But we haven't seen anywhere near enough of him to know for sure. For all we know he could turn out to be the next Leroy Rivett, or Danny Arnold. Foster? Ashe? Is that the sound of a barrel I hear being scraped?

Westernan cost £100,000 and we've not got that kind of money.

Ratchford was a option but I think he's gitca very big deal at Warrington and we can't afford to overspend on players if ge club don't think they warrant the wage demands.

We've been in dire need of a centre since talau went. We are also in need of a prop andva experienced halfback (maybe hohaia is the answer)

Gardner HAS played better this season. But if we are using Gardner's form over the previous four seasons as a metric to judge his absolute worth we're really struggling. At the very least it suggests he was playing for a contract extension and I have no time for that whatsoever. A professional rugby player shouldn't pick and choose the games he puts effort into. It's not conducive to a winning ethos.

I've no idea what money Saints are prepared to spend on a player. Neither have you. McManus and his associates have, in the past, repeatedly stated we are spending up to the cap. If that's the case it should be possible to trim Flannery's wages plus two or three fringe players to take a big bite out of the figure and pay the kid's wages.

You get what you pay for. If Saints want to win Grand Finals it is up to them to find the money.



If we are spending up to the cap then there's no reason we couldn't offer a similar deal. They can't spend MORE than us.

The point I'm making, Maybe saints don't think his contract demand matched his ability and you've got to respect that.

No way are we spending to the cap.

we keep saying this, but we made a cup semi and the grand final so our squad cant be that bad

We are not a bad side but with a centre, halfback and prop we could be a great side.

IMO we are just three quality players off being the wining team again. If wheeler and hohaia fill two of them roles then we will be a better side.

Time will tell.

indeed, i see wheeler as a centre and lance can fill a number of roles too, good times ahead

I wonder how many games we will get out of Wheeler next season? 5 ,10?

So, by your rationale, I should respect Saints' decision to re-sign Meli (twice) based on his abilities - despite the fact that his initial extension was based on woeful form?

At times I feel Saints are like the guy out of Memento with no short-term memory - scribbling down notes in a desperate attempt to keep track of the past. When will it sink in that Meli is the worst player in the history of Grand Finals? The guy's name should be synonymous with blundering error. A tragi-comic character wheeled out every year for fans to laugh at.

The fact that so many fans rush to defend him speaks volumes about the pernicious culture of accepting failure which has taken root at the club. It is very possible that the players themselves have absorbed some of the effects turning each new Grand Final defeat into a self-fulfilling prophecy.



Well, it's their words. Not mine.

I agree with this totally. After last year's GF failure, I never wanted to see Meli in a GF side again. But not only was he there, he ended up on the wing. Meli is a disaster and until we remove him we will not win a Grand Final.

I quite like Flannery and Meli. Meli has been one of the best Centres in the league this year and Flannery while he's somewhat of a disappointment considering he's a SOO player is solid in defence, drives forward well and has good speed for a forward.

I'd like to see next year:

Lomax
Makinson
Shenton
Meli
Foster
Wheeler
Hohaia
Perry
Roby
LMS
Flanagan
Soliola
Wilkin

Flannery
Puletua
Clough
Laffranchi

The saints 17 that in the last month has twice beaten Wigan and come pretty close to winning the GF will pretty much be here at the start of next season, minus Graham who admittedly is a huge loss and possibly Moore, who is less of a loss. We can discount pryce and eastmond because their contribution this season has benn minimal, and fringe players like ashurst and Armstrong will be replaced by new kids. So adding to what is already a competitive team we will have perry, laffranchi, Flanagan, hohaia, magennis, flannery, gardner and hopefully a fit wheeler. They are all first team super league standard players who will give us a strong squad before we add new kids like ashe who are likely to be the next off our production line. Some people live in cloud cuckoo land if they think we have a crap squad or that we are going to go out and splash the cash on big money players. Saints have a formula that has made us successful for years now, this isn't the time to turn into hull or Bradford and throw all that away

I'm not off my nut bewareofshadows - just put a few things out there to stir up a debate -job done

I know you can't do people on pay as you play - just frustrated at the amount of Aussies who suffer 1st season syndrome. I fear we will get the same with Hohia. I just would be really careful of fuutre contract offers and give the club some more get out room if things don't work out. Graham's loss could be covered - IF Perry/Laffranchi do the games we need them to.

Re FLanno/Meli-Gardener -this is probably where I mean ruthless. You need to get rid of people just before they go over the other side. We got it just about right with Long, where may be a year early with Gilly but with Meli/Gardener/Flanno w ehave got it wrong. There must be talent out there - Carmont/Hoffman/Youngquest/O'Donnell would have all been better bets. A better winger than Gardener - Fox, Halley, Youngquest?

This is where we must be ruthless. We have been that way with Armstrong correctly. Need to do it with older players. No room for sentiment.

We have no quota space available! Releasing meli or flannery wouldn't create quota space. Stop coming up with solutions that are non starters

The most obvious example of Saints lack of ruthlessness is the tragic farce that is now the fullback position. We have known about Wellens' limitations for six or seven years and for the past five teams have been increasingly exploiting them for fun. For the last two seasons he's been a millstone around our neck. The game has changed so much since he first took the jersey. Back then you'd be looking at your centres and halves to be the focal point of the attack. Now the game is very much geared to quick fullbacks with good ball skills who can inject themselves into defensive weak spots.

No team hell-bent on winning would allow someone an unchallenged role for ten years. Which is effectively what Paul Wellens has been allowed. I find it staggering that not only have we never brought in a second option - we've shown almost no interest in grooming one from the academy.

I suppose another good example would be the reckless disregard we have shown toward the kicking discipline over the years. Granted, we now have Foster who seems an excellent field goal kicker. But before him I recall us entering a season with PAUL WELLENS as back-up to a shot Long. Long himself was not up to standard. His short game was useful but his leg strength meant he could barely punt the ball thirty meters. This resulted in us going through seasons where we were beginning each set ten yards further back than we should expect. I mean, this kind of stuff is inexcusable. Yet fans continue to do so. Baffling.

I am absolutely suggesting that as an incontrovertible 100% fact, yes. They wouldn't have been resigned otherwise. And we couldn't have signed any foreigners to replace any of them due to quota restrictions... If you can name realistic replacements we could have afforded on the quota/cap then you have a legitimate argument - otherwise frustratedly spouting abuse at players who are as good in their position as most other players in the league and who would easily make most other 17s in the league just doesn't cut it. I'd love to find a Newlove, Sullivan and Joynt to replace the 3 of them as they are all pale shadows of the quality of player we had in Saints' shirts 10/15 years ago, but the sad fact is that the average standard of SL player is in terminal decline and all 3 are now as good (in fact significantly better) than anyone else available. Deal with and move on matey.