Thanks to your fans for their magnanimity after the game today, not for the first time either. Some good chat going back over the bridge.

Is Thompson injured? I've been impressed with him when I've seen him on Sky.

My thoughts were attacking wise we did ok. Made yards up the field and scored some tries.
All the forwards made decent carries.

The backs did as asked, but with no wingers to speak of and the jigglijiggling about for lomax the back 3 were always going to be limited in their effectiveness.

Hull were the better side and have better players, certainly in the pack.
They opened us up in the middle not out wide.

The big fault for us though was defensively. We can’t defend. We leave gaps, we number up wrong. But most importantly their attackers are better than our defenders.

The Greenwood try was a prime example. Greenwood stopped their number 8, but he is just not strong enough to hold him. No other players come in and he gets thrown off.
I'm not going to have a go at Greenwood saying he lacked effort. It's the difference between a 21 year old second rower v a 16 stone prop.

Give it a few more years and Greenwood maybe at a place that Taylor is now and would hold him longer.

But for me we have a lot of Greenwood type players.
Athletic and can run good lines, but one on one against a rampaging big prop they struggle or require numbers to effectively tackle.

This is key for me. Defending in the oppositions half we can throw those numbers in and look decent. But once it crosses the halfway line we stop pouring in with the same vigour. This makes sense as if you did a decent back will exploit the gaps. So it becomes more of a standing line and one on one defence and we don't do that we'll.

When I think about it Amor and Walmsley are our only top line props. We then have Tasi but he does not seem to have added any better than mose in defence. The rest are prospects. 21 year olds who we are way off prime. Ideally you would have one of them in the squad come match day. But we run with 2 or 3 regularly.

We need to pick our top prospect from this bunch and run with them as a bench player. But we have too many props that are second rower material.

Lms is about right for a good second rower, but he came as a prop.
We need more experienced forwards for games like today. Hard working, naturally big and fit. Not young lads barely out of university age trying to bulk up to take on one of the biggest packs in the league.

Personally if I was being harsh. I'd keep Amor, Roby, Walmsley (he's off the boil this year but his operation has put him back) Lms. We then need 2 props a second rower and loose forward, who can mix it with the best.

Then for me Savelio takes a bench spot with your 5th prop filled by your best academy prospect.

Obviously with injuries you will play more youngsters, but let's not fool ourselves that was pretty much a first choice forward pack today and we had 3 youth prospects on the pitch.

I've no doubt they are good, but just like lomax and gaskell, it's too many at once.

Speaking of which that old fella pryce is still going. How many years could we have got out of him. Gaskell and lomax would have been far better to have him as an experienced head around the halves.

I think, for once, you've pretty much nailed that!

I know lomax has just come back from injury but thought he was very poor, I found myself looking for him wondering if he'd gone off injured. It will take him time to be fair. I'm not a fan of this swapping the defenders around, he moves to the wing in D or whatever they keep doing. It's pretty pathetic, if he's fit to play, he's fit to be in the role of full back....he offers so much more than dawson and owens bringing it back.

Peyroux...laughable. Couldn't even get in the NZ warriors team and saints sign him....just incredible. Same for Tasi, if Salford don't want to keep him then pretty sure he's not good enough for us. Having said that, Tasi is a strange one, I've watched him in the NRL and he was fantastic at times....he has literally been so poor for us, its embarrassing.

I can't talk about Owens and Dawson else I'll end up headbutting my laptop.

I think harsh on Roby, not much he can do on the back of the pussy forwards we have. On the odd occasion we had a quick play the ball, he was onto it....it just hardly ever happened.

Vea...people really rate him, but has he ever been that good? I'm not so sure.

Richards...haha!

Don't be confused by LMS either, granted he probably was the best player with the most enthusiasm but still nothing special....you really do get drawn into that pathetic over the top reactions he does. Don't get me wrong, I'm keen to see passion, but does no one else think it's just so fake, it actually annoys me....you can see the other players rolling their eyes at him. Now, if he does it in the big games against the big teams (I suppose Hull now are) then I'll take it back, but he rarely does. Bang average and not good enough for Saints IMO.

The difference yesterday was the control of the ruck, saints didn't get them on their back like they did to us...hence why Houghton looked so good. For god sake, I would look good with their speed of the play the ball and no markers in position. It was just easy for Hull. Is it me or are we never in position in the markers? Someone is always on the floor or not square, whats going on?!

At the end of the day, the team across the park, could potentially be ok and challenge...I think a new coach would be good and saints could really turn this season around. Obviously not going to happen. We'll finish around 6th and lose in the play offs...zzzzzzz

From an opponent perspective I thought Wilkin ran the ball in harder than anyone on your side on 3 occasions in the 2nd half.
He was def trying to lead by example and get you back in the game. I'm glad the the rest of your pack never followed his lead.

In fact after the last of those charges you could tell by his ill looking face he looked totally knackered, he had nothing left. The hot day and Hulls pack dominance never allowed him to recover. We never really saw him again after that big effort, or any of his Pack mates.

A very honest but fair assessment.
re. Roby, I've loved watching him from the moment he burst on the scene, but yesterday, although he's still good,you could see he just wasn't able to what he used to do. What made him top class. But what a great player he's been for you.

Having said that, if you'd have heard Jamie Peacocks BBC match preview, Roby was the key, he was the best, he was the the brains, the organiser, I know Roby has been great for you but JPs Roby-loveathon was a man speaking with his heart not his head of his old GB test mate.

I heard that and thought well.....Danny Houghton best stay in the changing rooms. Glad he had the balls to come out.
I think old JP just got a bit muddled up.

What an all round disappoitning day, just over 7,200 in Langtree Park and Hull brought 2,500, yes sunny day & on TV but if 2,500 can travel from Hull and the cost of tickets and travel, around 4,700 Saints fans?

Not sure why Owen was ever signed, more important why is he even playing? though there are suggesitons, LMS gives everything, thought Jon Wilkin was okay, but like Roby they have been too overplayed, the latter was so outplayed by Houghton.

Sorry but Cunningham is not up to the job, recruitment has not been the best, not sure many would know who Rush was? and the owner seems to have his head buried in the sand oblivious?

I think people forget that Roby's ability to attack with dummy runs etc is stifled by the fact he has to play the full 80 and tackle like a mad man. Our management have ran that lad into the ground.

I don't think your club took the game that seriously to be honest - the fans & the players just didn't seem up for it like we did. I've no idea why exactly (I don't watch Saints every week like you guys), but it just seemed really flat yesterday.

A very good point...

I also think its hard for Roby to shine as much in attack when he is playing behind a well beaten pack. Hull's ruck speed was far quicker than ours - they were finding their feet much quicker and leaving 2-3 defenders on the floor at times. This allowed Houghton to look good.

Dont kid yourselves, if this was reversed and our pack had been on top like theirs then Roby would have shone just like Houghton. I think the sad fact is that our own pack is killing off Roby by not gaining quick enough play the balls. Not the first time this season either.

Also interesting that Walmsley doesn't seem to be getting much spoken about him - for a professional athlete (in any sport) to be as unfit as he is isnt acceptable. He takes one drive in a game and then stands for next 30 seconds bent over with his hands on his hips and seems incapable of playing longer than 10 mins at a time (and a good 7-8 mins of those are anonymous). His yards with the ball are poor and defensively he is a liability - his laziness to get onside on 4th tackle gave Hull the penalty they needed in build up to their first try and until that point we had looked half decent. If it was Mose putting in this kind of performance everybody would be up in arms but nobody seems to mention it with Walmlsey - and imo he is worse than Mose ever was currently.

I accept he missed pre-season due to injury and that can have an effect to a certain extent but surely by now he should have caught up more than where he is at. For me, him & Vea are currently the forwards who need dropping more than anyone else as their performances just arent good enough

I'd still take Roby over any other hooker in the league. I think he had a very good game yesterday, considering what he was playing behind.

Can we lay off the fans.

It was the biggest attendance of the round by some distance and would still have been without any hull fans turning up.

The way the cup is managed it could still be the biggest attendance when compared to the next round.

You don't have talk some shoite. But not this time.

It is not attacking fans, it is just stating fact recent attendances have been under last years figures for matches, when the team first moved to the new ground many of my friends in Eccleston and Windle started to select their matches they went to, now they go more to the pub for Sky matches, snd yesterday when on the BBC, they say they are not willing to pay the current prices for what is being delivered, the sport is getting less and less real quality stars that you just have to go and watch. I was one person who felt the new ground should have been builtfor 20,000, good job now that was not the decision, times have changed as we have discussed there is now far too much kicking just up into the air and hope for a knock on, some rule changes have not been for the better, this all adds up.

But in comparison to previous years it was a good turn out.

Attendances are well up on KR and that is all with poorer product on show.
Not to mention revenue per ticket must be higher.

What is going on with our play the ball??? It's so slow and lumbering, and it's been going on for what feels like a few years now. We used to be all about the ruck speed, winning penalties against teams because they held us down, or couldn't get square, or Cunningham or Roby would make 10 yards from dummy half.

I'm sure there are other reasons, but I think we suffer a lot from having ineffectual and/or small wingers. If you have wingers who can get their upper body through the tackle and dictate the speed of the play the ball on tackle one then you're probably going to get quick rucks for the rest of the set, as it's a snowball effect. If, however, your winger gets dumped on his backside on tackle one (which is what happens every time for us) then you're up against it from the start. People used to dish out some stick to Meli and Gardner, but when we had those two on the wings we got our sets off to a good start.

That doesn't explain how bad we are at controlling the ruck speed in defence, though. There were occasions at the weekend where we actually made dominant tackles but the tackler just got straight up as soon as the 'held' call came from the ref. Whether we like it or not, controlling the speed of the ruck is central to the modern game, and we look completely unpracticed at it.

Houghton has played the full 80 for years, but has suffered from not having the best pack around him.

People recogise his stamina, ridiculous tackling performance and darting runs, but have lamented his seeming inability to take us to the next level regarding organisation, quick play the balls, and game management.

This year, however, is Danny's best ever. He's stepping up to the mark in all those areas described above, and we're winning matches. Why? Has Houghton suddenly learned in 3 months that which he hadn't in the previous 8 years? Of course not.

The simple reason is that he is playing in probably the best pack in the competition this year and is finally able to demonstrate his full potential. We are now seeing his full range of skills which were there all along.

The opposite has happened to Roby this season. He hasn't suddenly become a 'bad player', he is merely suffering from the constraints placed upon him by being amongst a pack that isn't firing. He's having to compensate by doing more donkey work which obviously is going to tire and stunt him. He looks like Danny has for the last few seasons. Solid, good, but not quite there.

Look to the pack for answers, not the 80 minutes. Danny is proving exceptional over 80 minutes every game this season.

I've been banging on about those first carries being so important to the set for years. People was heaping praise on Quinlan, SMD and Makinson for years when they are partly to blame for our sets coming off our line after a kick. That first carrie you need to win contact and win te ptb but those 3 and now Owens are dead on contact which results in the other team slowing the ptb and basically resulting in us making no yardage in that set.

Your correct in that ade and Meli would win contact and win the ptb if they caught it in first place but we now only have swifty who can do this.

Watching game as a Leeds fan agree with this. Without Roby though your pack would be in real bother. Your defence is dodgy but is a step up from Leeds this season. Happy for you to send us Roby anytime you have had enough of him. Still a great player for my money.

The biggest game of the season for us (lets face it: we have never been this far away from winning the grand final) and we put our worst performance in. Questions have to be asked.

Those questioning Roby are insane. Honestly, what do you expect him to do? He's good, but he's not THAT good

Insane? I don't see how really. He's been a legend for us over the years and his performances have been perhaps amongst the most consistent of any of our elite players over the decades. But time waits for no man and a man flogged irresponsibly since Cunningham retired will obviously feel the effects of that. It is without question that Roby is no longer the player he once was. He's not hitting as hard in defense, he's not making as many runs and he's not as dynamic or dangerous when making them now. Sure, he's having to struggle extra hard because we have such a beaten pack, but that's not the only reason his performances are not what they were. I'm not saying he's a bad player, far from it. He's class and will continue to be next season as well no doubt. But he's not the top hooker in Super League any more. He's not even the best British hooker anymore. He's not even in the top 3 anymore. This is another area Saints are massively failing on, he needs to be replaced now, not in two years. Signing a 32 year old Kiwi who plays less than Gary Wheeler isn't the answer either.

Probably not the top world hooker but easily in the top.2 in SL.

I made this point on another thread regarding Roby. I have the utmost respect for him and what he does for the team, but should your clubs marquee player really be someone who makes 40+ tackles per game and who's impact is so heavily reliant on the performance of his 5 other forwards? Surely a marquee should be a match winner? Someone who can turn a game on his own? As much as Roby is quality, im not sure he would fall into that category.

Perhaps KC could make it his next project and put Turner there?