To be fair, a big Paul Clough would be a top prop!

However much we hope it for, those buggers won't go away. Their pack will be pretty much as good as it has been and we've far from had things our own way against them lately.

You may take umbrage at them constantly bigging up their own players, but swinging things the other way is like putting chum in the water for Rogues and his gang of superpies to come on fill our board with their opinions, which no one really wants.

More because I can't be bothered going into real detail on here as it simply isn't worth it. Not for a group of supporters who label Gildart, who hasn't even played a SL game yet, as the best young centre in the comp (oh, how we laughed). Even here, we've got another of your daft lot ranting about how fast Hampshire is. Another that's proven all. If I wanted pace, I'd sign Kevin Penny. Means nothing.

Any group of supporters that truly try and tell everyone that Gelling is a good rugby player quite evidently aren't to be taken seriously.

A group - show me! I think it was one person

You mentioned the pedestrian Wigan halves, I just corrected you.

Gelling IS a better centre than Turner or Jones. I do like Percival and mentioned him three or four years back as one to watch.

Definition of pedestrian: lacking inspiration or excitement; dull.

Not sure what you're going on about but it's cool. You keep going,

Gelling is absolutely crap. Jordan Turner was a good enough rugby player to switch to first receiver mid season and lead his team to a Grand Final victory. Should Wigan EVER use Gelling at first receiver, somebody please let me know as I'd be willing to drive wherever to watch that comedy. Must see viewing. I do wonder how Wiganers would rate Gelling if he wore a HKR shirt. Doesn't even have the basic skillset of a rugby player, let alone a centre. Makes 2/3 errors a game that cost Wigan the game, but it's alright cos he made 700 metres.

Josh Jones is a back rower as he doesn't have the skillset of a centre. He does offer nice depth there though. At least Saints recognised this. Your incredibly overrated sack of from over the lump went from Ian Thornley to Anthony Gelling (icon_smile.gif). Then you've all got the comic genius to lecture the RL community on your 'depth'.

Brilliant.

Aye, it was me and as he'll probably know I later expanded on my point to say I thought Gildart was the best young centre about, yet to make his debut at first team level but that obviously doesn't fit in with his rant!

I struggling with people quoting SLS in truth though. He's literally the only person I've never been bothered about replying to as he's quite clearly on the wind up! He's the sole member of my blocked list but I'm still seeing his drivel!

So pace means nothing?

Give a player a full skillset in any sport then add pace and you have the full package. How many players have you looked at and thought "if only he had pace"?

Or have I taken your comments out of context perhaps?

SLS is in danger of looking very silly come October; a bit like the likes of bazdev did last year on here and other forums.

What I don't understand is how you can slate Wigan so much and rip their team apart, before saying our teams are quite even and it'll be a real tussle between us. That doesn't say much for us.

For what its worth I do think the teams are fairly even but our superiority at 1,6,7 and 9 tips the balance in our favour. A fit Lomax, Burns, Walsh and Roby is comfortably better than Bowen, Williams, Smith and McIlorum.

Wigan are probably stronger in the three quarters. Gelling started his Super League career as a laughing stock but he was one of the most improved players in Super League last year. He is still prone to an error or two and his handling needs improving but he is a strong runner and makes good yardage with the ball more often than not. Sarginson is another one who improved as the season went on and he looks like he has found his position now. He was excellent for England in the Four Nations. Wigan just about shade the wingers too but again there isn't much in it.

Wigan have the stronger back row I think but I'd have Bateman over Tomkins as I just don't get the hype with him. His surname carries him a long way. Bateman, Farrell and O'Loughlin are all top players though, the latter two especially.

I rate Flower and Crosby but I think we edge it in the props. Patrick is a hybrid prop/back rower and Mossop is overrated for me and also has shoulders made of biscuit.
Amor, Walmsley and Masoe all had excellent patches throughout the year and if they hit that form for longer periods then they will be very hard to handle. Amor would have played for England had it not been for his knee injury. Add Richards and Thompson to the mix and we have a good set of props there. We have the better quality at prop but Wigan have more quantity.

Overall there isn't much in it but I don't think there is a stronger squad than ours in Super League. That isn't to say I think we will win everything; I just don't look at any other squad and feel inferior.

I'm confident the silverware will be shared between Saints, Wigan and Warrington.

I wondered where you had got to? A bit of sense at last. Just two things though. It's a bit early to rate Burns and I think you underestimate Tomkins, especially his defence and leadership qualities. But it's all opinion.

This.
A very balanced summary and personally I hope that Catalan will also be in the mix

I don't know what it is with Tomkins mate but I just don't get it with him. Don't get me wrong, he's not a bad player, far from it, but he is overrated in general for me. He will probably be better in 2015 than 2014 but he was distinctly average last year.

I rate Burns because he provides that aggression and competitive edge that we need. He also knows how to pick a pass too, but it's that "bit of mongrel" in him that I like the most.

Catalans have some outstanding individuals and in Carney they have someone who potentially could be the best player in the competition.

However their away form will hold them back from winning trophies I feel. At home they can beat anyone and everyone but in the past they've always been inconsistent and unreliable on their travels.

If they manage to overcome that then they are real genuine contenders.

Re Tomkins I'm not sure there are many second rowers capable of scoring the try at Wembley in 2011 and at Headingley against the Exiles in the same season. I rate him as a leader and he will be our next captain.

Re Burns. He had a poor first season at Hull KR but improved drastically in his second when Dobson had gone leaving him to call the plays and take the kicks. He's back to playing second fiddle now and at a much bigger club too. I'm certainly not writing him off but let's see how he fits in first. I do agree about the mongrel bit though.

Pace is a big asset, no doubt.

Many on here have taken my posts and either can't read or have deliberately taken them out of context.

I don't rate Gelling at all and I'm not a fan of Bowen, who in tight games is a liability for me. I said Sarginson has improved a lot but needs to run a centre's line more. Too often yet, he takes the winger's space or cuts in. That's fine against lazy defences but again in big games won't cut it. Let's have some context, Louie Macarthy-Scarsbrook was able to defend him pretty comfortably at OT. I've openly stated that Wigan's wingers are quality; I've stated their back row is good with O'Loughlin the best player in the country and I've said McIlorum is enormous for them (their most important player for me). I rate Farrell highly also. Their kids all look good potential but still have it all to prove and only time will tell. Smith and Williams I labelled 'pedestrian' because they run the same system that all Wigan's youth do and they've been shown to struggle hugely when teams defend that system properly. Take them out of their comfort zone and how good are they ? Smith quickly looks a run of the mill scrum half whilst Williams, we don't know yet but he's hardly looked like breaking a tight game yet IMO for Wigan.

My thoughts on their props are that Crosby is decent but little else and he's been hammered by Saints' props on a couple of occasions. I haven't commented on Flower save his incident at OT at all. I'm not a huge fan of Mossop. He's a workhorse who'll do the donkey work but is he an upgrade on Taylor ? Not a chance. I've stated Tautau is a good signing (their best IMO as he's a quality prop forward). Patrick is an impact prop who'll look awesome against lesser sides where Wigan invariably run up 50+ points but I'm not convinced he'll go anywhere near as well against bigger packs.

Nowhere have I absolutely slated Wigan's side anywhere, I've hammered their fans because most of them leave themselves open to absolute ridicule. Their fault, not mine. Wigan's team is still one of best in SL. Nowhere have I said anything else. Anyone with a brain can see it's between Saints, Wigan and Warrington. It's not rocket science.

Re Tomkins: as with oh so many players, the one who came back from Union looks a shadow of the one who left - I've seen nothing thus far to suggest Tomkins can regain the form he once had - he still could do, but it's doubtful imo.

Re Burns: I think the fact Walsh and Burns have played together before and had a partnership is of huge benefit, and Burns has already said hell play a more free role, leaving the organisation to Walsh, everything we've been missing!

I think this is a well argued and articulate post. Now don't you feel better for not slagging anyone off and making the effort to be reasoned?

You obviously know a lot about the game and study it closely but until now you have rather hidden it.

I know you don't like us much but not all Wigan fans fall into the ridiculous category just as Saints fans are not all paragons of reasoning.

i think you may just be made to eat some of your words and there will be many on here who will love that, even amongst your own fans. But not me. Keep posting. Just make it reasonable

Ourselves and Wigan are quite evenly matched, but I do think we have the edge. This is mainly because of our half backs. We have two experienced talented backs who have played with each other before. Wigan will have a young player at 6 and Smith at 7. Smith is solid, but doesn't have the ability of a player like Walsh, who can drag you out of a huge hole and lead you to victory.

In terms of speed, Wigan probably have the edge. From what I've seen Charnley is the fastest in the competition and his try scoring rate is second to none. We have improved in recent years though from having a slow and old backline, to a young and fast backline. I don't think it's a coincidence that we've improved since.

Both packs are great, probably the best two in the competition. I think we are the best in terms of ability, but Wigan's are the best in terms of attitude. Our packs performance can fluctuate hugely. For example, LMS and Masoe can be devastating or anonymous, there's no real middle ground. Wigan seem more consistent than us in this area.

It will probably be us and Wigan fighting it out for trophies this year again. And with both trophies being decided in finals, picking a winner is almost impossible. Both sides can bear each other. For us to beat Wigan, our pack needs to man up again. We did last June and in the Grand Final and won both times.

I agree with other comments about Catalans. The signings of Tonga, Casty and particularly Carney transform the team. I can see them making the top 4. Their home form is never a concern, it's just the away form that needs improvement, and I think they will. I think Warrington will improve too. With Clarke coming in and if they can find a consistent 6 and 7, they'll threaten too. This is the year Leeds will fall off IMO. The side is ageing hugely and a 6th place finish wouldn't surprise me.

Burns and Walsh were halfback partners for three years at Penrith and they're also good mates off the pitch. They complement each other well because Walsh is the organiser and Burns the line breaker. That's how they both like it. So they will go well, assuming Walsh has the confidence and fitness to play again following his injury.

Burns is an improvement by the very fact he is a halfback. Whether he is a good or average halfback will make little difference as a side we are much improved with 2 halfbacks in the team.

It's been many years to get to the stage that most teams take for granted.

Quote ="SaintsFan"Burns and Walsh were halfback partners for three years at Penrith and they're also good mates off the pitch. They complement each other well because Walsh is the organiser and Burns the line breaker. That's how they both like it. So they will go well, assuming Walsh has the confidence and fitness to play again following his injury.'" Yes, you are right. Though after a promising start at the Panthers when they came second in 2010 they came 12th and a disastrous 15th in 2011&2012. The NRL review makes interesting reading especially the bit about being the worst kicking team in the competition. www.nrl.com/season-review-penrit ... fault.aspx Burns was dropped in his final season and released to join Hull KR where he struggled in the first season. However there is no doubt that he played well last season and earned his three year contract with Saints at this late stage of his career. My point was that the argument that Saints have a better stand off than Wigan can't be taken as read. It may turn out to be correct. Burns is the epitome of 'journeyman' whereas Williams and Hampshire have their whole careers ahead of them and could achieve anything in the game. No disrespect, because he is clearly good enough for Super League but Burns has achieved nothing.

Quote ="SaintsFan"Burns and Walsh were halfback partners for three years at Penrith and they're also good mates off the pitch. They complement each other well because Walsh is the organiser and Burns the line breaker. That's how they both like it. So they will go well, assuming Walsh has the confidence and fitness to play again following his injury.'" Yes, you are right. Though after a promising start at the Panthers when they came second in 2010 they came 12th and a disastrous 15th in 2011&2012. The NRL review makes interesting reading especially the bit about being the worst kicking team in the competition. www.nrl.com/season-review-penrit ... fault.aspx Burns was dropped in his final season and released to join Hull KR where he struggled in the first season. However there is no doubt that he played well last season and earned his three year contract with Saints at this late stage of his career. My point was that the argument that Saints have a better stand off than Wigan can't be taken as read. It may turn out to be correct. Burns is the epitome of 'journeyman' whereas Williams and Hampshire have their whole careers ahead of them and could achieve anything in the game. No disrespect, because he is clearly good enough for Super League but Burns has achieved nothing.

Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"Yes, you are right. Though after a promising start at the Panthers when they came second in 2010 they came 12th and a disastrous 15th in 2011&2012. The NRL review makes interesting reading especially the bit about being the worst kicking team in the competition. www.nrl.com/season-review-penrit ... fault.aspx Burns was dropped in his final season and released to join Hull KR where he struggled in the first season. However there is no doubt that he played well last season and earned his three year contract with Saints at this late stage of his career. Achieving something over there is incredibly hard; Thurston has won jack in a Cowboys jersey, I'm guessing he's a 'journeyman' as well ? Burns isn't international class, but if he were English, he would be ! My point was that the argument that Saints have a better stand off than Wigan can't be taken as read. It may turn out to be correct. Burns is the epitome of 'journeyman' whereas Williams and Hampshire have their whole careers ahead of them and could achieve anything in the game. No disrespect, because he is clearly good enough for Super League but Burns has achieved nothing.'" Interesting manipulation of the situation there. Burns was to all intents and purposes, kicked out of Penrith due to a 12 match suspension he incurred after being charged with an intentional high tackle and chicken wing in the same game. Prior to that, he'd played nearly 130 NRL matches over a 7 year people whereby he'd been a first choice 6 in pretty much all. Luke Walsh, whom you lot are trying to denigrate on your own board at present, was voted joint 7th in the Dally M the year he left for us. I know categorically that he tried to get out of the Saints contract because a current NRL team wanted him as their first choice 7. He's credited as having his best ever season, the year he left for England. To you daft lot, he's a 'journeyman' as well. I find it hilarious that you can seriously raise the argument that Matty Smith and George Williams are even comparable. Take Wigan's system away by defending correctly and they look like amateurs. Saints' two halves are seasoned, respected NRL first teamers. Smith and Williams wouldn't even be playing first grade over there.

Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"Yes, you are right. Though after a promising start at the Panthers when they came second in 2010 they came 12th and a disastrous 15th in 2011&2012. The NRL review makes interesting reading especially the bit about being the worst kicking team in the competition. www.nrl.com/season-review-penrit ... fault.aspx Burns was dropped in his final season and released to join Hull KR where he struggled in the first season. However there is no doubt that he played well last season and earned his three year contract with Saints at this late stage of his career. Achieving something over there is incredibly hard; Thurston has won jack in a Cowboys jersey, I'm guessing he's a 'journeyman' as well ? Burns isn't international class, but if he were English, he would be ! My point was that the argument that Saints have a better stand off than Wigan can't be taken as read. It may turn out to be correct. Burns is the epitome of 'journeyman' whereas Williams and Hampshire have their whole careers ahead of them and could achieve anything in the game. No disrespect, because he is clearly good enough for Super League but Burns has achieved nothing.'" Interesting manipulation of the situation there. Burns was to all intents and purposes, kicked out of Penrith due to a 12 match suspension he incurred after being charged with an intentional high tackle and chicken wing in the same game. Prior to that, he'd played nearly 130 NRL matches over a 7 year people whereby he'd been a first choice 6 in pretty much all. Luke Walsh, whom you lot are trying to denigrate on your own board at present, was voted joint 7th in the Dally M the year he left for us. I know categorically that he tried to get out of the Saints contract because a current NRL team wanted him as their first choice 7. He's credited as having his best ever season, the year he left for England. To you daft lot, he's a 'journeyman' as well. I find it hilarious that you can seriously raise the argument that Matty Smith and George Williams are even comparable. Take Wigan's system away by defending correctly and they look like amateurs. Saints' two halves are seasoned, respected NRL first teamers. Smith and Williams wouldn't even be playing first grade over there.

I don't think anyone is trying to 'denigrate' Luke. He is a top class Super League player. The best half in the league. What more do you want?

Matty is at least the current England scrum half. To most Saints fans however, he will always be the guy who was surplus to your requirements. At least give him the credit he deserves that he has turned his career around and improved markedly as a player with Wigan.

Even The Roosters had difficulty defending Wigan's 'system' so I don't think it's as easy as you make out. If every team 'defended correctly' there'd be no tries would there?

Smith will always be that guy, yes. We had Eastmond, significantly the better player; however Saints didn't plan that time very well at all and it's took them 3 years to fix it. Even now, they have Hohaia as one of their top earners despite being little more than ordinary because of the lack of foresight Saints showed. Lot of money in play for Saints to work with when Hohaia leaves at the end of this coming season.

Regardless, Smith has never been anything but Joe Ordinary. He can run your plays and provide a semi-decent kicking game but under pressure, he ain't going to cut it. It's why in games ike the GF, when it was obvious to all that Saints were defending your system correctly, you couldn't offer anything remotely different. Smith can't do 'different', he doesn't have it in him,

The Roosters game was a preseason friendly for them. How do we honestly think the likes of Wigan, Saints, Leeds, Warrington would get on against them in Australia if we faced them mid-season ? They'd have to declare !

Fair enough points. I think that describing Matty as Joe Ordinary is a little unfair. He may very well be limited but a lot of people rate him highly enough to include him in the Dream Team and the England team.

Also Lance is after all a World Cup winner. Not a bad pedigree is it? That Saints bought him then didn't know where to play him is hardly his fault. A little more respect might be in order. But then that's none of my business. So I'll say no more.

Looks like SLS is here to stir it up.

It will be like the immovable object meeting the irresistable force when he and Saddened meet.