It's as if Wiganers don't actually watch the game. A comparison of packs is almost futile as both sides play different games. Wigan's forwards play on the edge. The vast majority of their metres comes through their second rowers. Their props offer little. I'm sure their 'props' in the Grand Final contributed similar to what Luke Thompson offered on his own for St Helens. Clubb, Flower and Crosby against Amor, Masoe and Walmsley ?!?! Ats not even a contest. Saints bullied Wigan's front row and did it twice last year. Masoe, in particular, set the tone massively in both games. A big part of why Wigan are obsessively stock piling props is, IMO, entirely because Wane knows to beat Saints, their props are going to need to compete. Can't rely on Liam Farrell and your threequarters for all your go forward.

It is remiss of any Wiganer to seriously tell Saints fans that Wigan's pack is 'better'. Kyle Amor is the best prop on both sides by an absolute mile. In fact, Masoe, Walmsley and Amor would all make Wigan's 17 every time.

Wigan have an excellent structure, are excellent in the backs with the exception of Gelling, and supremely aggressive defence. Player for player, they aren't all that at all. O'Loughlin is the real star of both sides.

No worries and cheers for the apology!

Yeah, I could have worded that better. I meant by implication that we had a lot of players out including first choice pack members. If memory serves I think we were missing both first choice hookers in McIlorum and Williams, Farrell, Flower and Pettybourne out plus Tomkins still wasn't fit after re-signing. In addition it was the first game back after injury for Bateman, O'Loughlin and possibly Crosby (although I'm not 100% on that one). I can't remember if there were any others to be honest but I think it does show that the pack wasn't even close to full strength. Just the losses of Flower, McIllorum and Farrell alone seriously weakens the pack and, in particular, it's hard to overestimate the loss of McIlorum when going up against a team with Roby in it. IIRC we had that many missing we actually debuted Doran at hooker in that game wearing squad number 42!!

I agree that the two packs play in a completely different way, and therefore, in some aspects, direct comparison is futile. The way we use O'Loughlin as a 3rd pivot is probably the biggest single illustration of the different approaches. However the original point (from Pete I think) was that the Saints pack, as a rule, was bossed by the more aggressive Wigan pack (we'll add the caveat 'when both were at full strength' lol) and I'm not sure how that is affected by direct comparisons, especially man for man. You mention that the Wigan pack plays at the edge and that is certainly true. It's that aspect that the Saints pack seems to struggle with, certainly in recent seasons. That's something that was highlighted time and again on this very board prior to the last 2 games between us; when the going got tough, the Saints pack seemed unable to step up. Nathan Brown intimated as much himself after the Good Friday defeat. Whether there has been a sea change in attitude since these last two games remains to be seen as, as I've been at pains to point out, the 2 packs haven't met head on and close to full strength in them but even so, there does seem to have been a change in attitude. I think that was evident from the opening couple minutes of the GF! It's a shame, in some respects, that Flower lost the plot as it would have been interesting to see how that developed. Anyoo, that's history but I'm sure we'll find out over the coming season!

As to your other point, I think that's coming from a Saints perspective. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, and I doubt you'll get many dissenters on this board, but from a Wigan point of view only Amor would definitely make the Wigan 17. I like Walmsley but he isn't, at this stage of his career, as good as Flower or Taylor and, on last years form, no better than Clubb. Masoe is not a Wigan prop full stop. We've been there with Feka and it's not Wane's, or Maguire's before him, style! Now you could argue that Masoe is better than Feka and I certainly wouldn't put up an argument but the fact is a better Feka is still a Feka and that's not what Wane is looking for. Back to Walmsley for a second; he has all the attributes to go on and be a top class prop and I hope he fulfils his undoubted potential. But to project this discussion into 2015; We've added Mossop to replace Taylor and added Patrick and Tautai, both of whom are very much in the Wane mould, which means Walmesley would have to get in the team above Mossop, Flower, Tautai, Patrick, Clubb and Crosby (who was as good for us last season as Walmsley was for you). I've not included Pettybourne (as Walmsley is better) or Greenwood and Sutton (as they are relatively unproven at this level despite being excellent prospects). You might think he'd get in ahead of some of those, and you might be right...who knows? However to say ''would make the Wigan 17 every time' is stretching it a bit! You're basically saying that Wane would only choose one of his current props if he could have the Saints props instead. That's clearly not very likely!

I understand what your saying, but Masoe would get into the side every time Pettybourne is in the Wigan side, Masoe is an ongoing argument on here, similar to Pettybourne on the Wigan site, but Masoes best is ahead of Pettybournes imo. As for Walmsley, I'd of had Taylor ahead of him, but I'm not sure about the rest.

Speaking more generally about Wigans signings, I don't actually think your signings improve your absolute best, and only Tautai (whom I'm not convinced by) having the potential to bring an extra dimension. What they do bring is rotation without any depreciable drop in performance. I maintain that next year will be the same as this year, in that Saints absolute best is better than Wigans, but Wigan will be closer to that level far more often (all imo), with the possible exception of Warrington though, on paper Saints and Wigan are in a league of their own next year...

Phuzzy, I'll tread carefully as you seem like you genuinely believe what you're writing and are at least trying but honestly, how much rugby do you watch ? I mean, other than Wigan, in a genuinely unbalanced manner - how much do you watch ? Because seriously, anybody telling me that Walmsley is not as good as Taylor and Flower and is on a par with Clubb can't watch a lot.

A prop's job on a rugby league field is metres, primarily. Their job is to provide the territory and go forward for their backs to play. The best are able to offer that go forward with a real work rate in defence on top, such as James Graham for example. Now, since a prop's role is so clear, it can be measured by statistics. Here are some for you to consider (and seriously, consider them because they make your theory sound ridiculous).

So, Walmsley is not as good as Taylor or Flower. Here are the average metres made per game by all three -

Walmsley - 108m.
Flower - 68m.
Taylor - 79m

Clubb, who Walmsley is on a par with averages 71m a game.

Here are how many carries a game that these props average. How often they're prepared to cart it up -

Walmsley - 13.
Flower - 10.
Taylor - 10.
Clubb - 9.

Here are the tackles they average. Their defensive work rate per game -

Walmsley - 17.
Flower - 26.
Taylor - 20.
Clubb - 19.

Tackle busts. How many times a game do these guys put themselves in position to win the floor, get quick ball for their backs.

Walmsley - 2.7.
Flower - 1.4.
Taylor - 2.3.
Clubb - 1.7.

Basically, Walmsley makes more metres, offers more carries and wins the floor more often whilst his Wigan counterparts offer more tackles in a game of which many will be second and third man in, in line with Wane's emphasis on controlling the ruck.

With this in mind, Phuzzy, are you still seriously going to try and tell me that Walmsley is not as good as any of these props ? Seriously ?

Here are Crosby's, who's another you assert was Walmsley's equal last season.

Metres per game - 73m.
Carries - 10.
Tackles - 20.
Busts - 0.7.

Good stats mate and good post.


It with eve interesting if you could put Mose in with them and see his stats. Walmsley has come in for critisim on here for not playing well yet Mose is seen as the worlds greatest prop. I think those stats prove that big Alex is a good prop.

Mose:

82m per game
10 carries per game
15 tackles per game
2.1 busts per game

Does that make big Alex the best prop in the world ?



Big Alex does 26m per game more. He does 3 carries more. 2 tackles more and 0.6 tackle busts more.

So he beats him every department and it's easy to compare as both are classed as impact players

Quote ="St pete"Does that make big Alex the best prop in the world ? '" Refer to 1:22 in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3K312eIyrg

Quote ="St pete"Does that make big Alex the best prop in the world ? '" Refer to 1:22 in this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3K312eIyrg

Cheers for the compliment, much appreciated.

Can't compare Masoe and Walmsley in my opinion. Walmsley isn't an impact prop any longer. He's a 1st or 2nd prop nowadays (10+ carries, 100+m, 15+ tackles). Masoe is as clear an impact prop as you'll ever see. Much lower work rate but high impact. Wigan certainly couldn't handle his impact. It was Masoe that rattled them to the point that Flower did what he did.

As I said earlier though, Amor is the real player. Injury curtailed his season sadly but he's an international in all but name. Next cab off the rank in the line of England props. Top class. I remember reading an idiotic Wiganer state seriously that Amor wouldn't make their 17 when St Helens signed him. They haven't got a prop worth shining his boots.

Mose was starting at back end of the year with walmsley coming off the bench. Both play short mins. What constitutes being a impact prop ?

Firstly, was there any need for the first bit of the post? As it happens I've been watching rugby for over 20 years and a home and away supporter for much of that time. I'm guessing I've seen more rugby than you, although not knowing you personally, I obviously couldn't say for sure.

As to the rest of the post; impressive stats for Walmsley indeed. I've no issue with him being an excellent player and an exciting prospect but, as you say yourself, it's not always possible to make direct comparisons in that way. The 2 packs play completely different roles and, as is quite plain from those stats, the Wigan props all have a very similar workrate in line with that. Our metres come from the back row and centres more than prop and we are able to do that because of the very aggressive way the front row play and the manner in which they lay the platform. There's more than one way to skin a cat SLS! It's interesting that the main area he falls short of the Wigan props (and by that I mean ALL the Wigan props including Crosby!) is in defence. Telling, no? It's this blitzkrieg style of defence that we're referring to when we comment on the aggressiveness of the Wigan pack and, let's be honest, even the stats don't tell the whole story here! Do you have the percentage missed tackles for them to hand? I think I can say without contradiction that if Walmsley played in the Wigan pack he'd be expected to up his defensive workrate considerably and not only that, be expected to hit harder and more consistently. I'm sure you know as well as I do what that extra workload would do to his metres made, tackle bust and carries per game stats. Like I say, I have no problem with you championing Walmsley; I agree with much of what you say about him. But to say he's better than Flower, Taylor and Clubb is just opinion. Only if he played for the same team in the same systems and then, and only then, boast better stats would that cease to be the case.

As for Masoe, you're still wrong. Pettybourne is capable of playing long minutes. Masoe isn't. It's no secret that that is Wane's way. Pettybourne wouldn't have played half as much as he did anyway were it not for Taylor falling out of favour so even if we accept that Masoe and Pettybourne are like for like in terms of the type of prop they are (which isn't necessarily the case) to suggest Masoe would 'make the Wigan 17 every time' is simply not true. Given the option, Wane would go for the workhorse type of prop over the Masoes of this world without exception.

It's hard not to turn this into a 'our's are better than your's' type debate which I've no real desire to do. I agree that Amor would be a shoe in and I'm even happy to concede Walmsley is there or thereabouts. For the sake of argument let's say he would at the very least be in contention and get plenty games. However that is a long way from what you were implying in that post. Masoe is not a Wigan prop, full stop. That's not based on some sort of misguided club loyalty but on seeing Wigan week in, week out and being a season ticket holder for over 20 years. Trust my judgement on that or not; it's up to you.

Edit: Sorry, meant to mention speed of play the ball and winning the ruck defensively which I have little doubt the Wigan 4 do better than Walmsley too, but I'm sure you get the gist!

That's a fair point Pete that I also think is relevant to the stats discussion elsewhere on this thread.

The issue that I have with your argument is that it is all based on the sequitur that Wigan's method is better. Nothing backs that premise up other than your own bias. Wigan finished below St Helens, despite an amazing array of injuries. Wigan lost the Grand Final to St Helens, despite them having no halves on the field. There is no evidence to use that suggests Wigan's gameplan is superior to that of St Helens and so it should not be used as an immediate starting point.

You asserted adamantly that Walmsley has been less of a player than Flower and Taylor and only the equal of Crosby and Clubb. Your statement. The reason for my first paragraph that you have taken issue with is because anybody that has watched them all play in a balanced manner could never come to that conclusion whilst Walmsley has been so superior all year. Clubb, for instance averages two tackles more a game, 37m less, 4 carries fewer and 1 less tackle bust. Yet, you are sure Walmsley has only been his equal ? It is a nonsense. Crosby, another that Walmsley has only equalled in your view, has 35 fewer metres, 3 fewer carries, two less busts a game and 3 more tackles. On average every game.

So, no. They clearly haven't been Walmsley's equal. You cannot assert that an average of between 2-10 more tackles a game but a third fewer metres equals 'better'. In particular, because most of those extra tackles will be second and third man in, due to Wigan's obsessive slowing down tactics. If we use the opposite sequitur than your own and presume that Saints' method of play is better, how would Clubb, Crosby, Flower and Taylor compare with Walmsley ? They'd need to up their offensive work rate, bust more tackles, win the collision more often and make significantly more metres. Since they are all much smaller than Walmsley, how likely is that to happen ? I like Taylor, he's a fine prop stifled in Wigan's system but the other three are the definition of average.

You're willing to acknowledge that Amor is a 'shoe in', yet I don't understand your basis. He averages a metre less than Walmsley per game despite two more carries, two fewer busted tackles and only two tackles more a game. He averages the same amount of tackles as Tony Clubb does and yet, using the eyeball test, you'd have to be insane to consider Clubb the equal of Amor. I can only conclude that Wigan's obsession with gang tackling and the distorted effect this has on your player's defensive stats has blinded your average Wiganer to a prop's main role, which is providing territory.

Masoe I haven't really argued. I can see why he wouldn't fit Wane's system. However, it would be wrong to not acknowledge that in Saints' system, he has been an enormous part of why St Helens have beaten Wigan on the last two occasions. Without McIlorum, Wigan have no answer to Masoe as Crosby and co found out lying flat on their backsides after running at him in the opening set at Old Trafford.

I guess ultimately I find it astonishing that anybody would argue that another prop is better than another despite clearly being inferior in every facet except being third man in to a finished tackle 5+ more times a game. That just buttresses the said player's stats for me. This theory is emblematic of how Wigan's emphasis on defence has blinded British RL to a big extent.

THe premise I have is that Saints don't have a method. At least this season they did not. With Milward we played off the back of fast attacking plays. Blowing sides off the park in short 20 minute bursts.

Under Anderson we defended everything thrown at us.

In the intervening years we had a mixture of styles but with no dominate way to play the game against other teams.

Under Brown we adapted our play week to week, team to team. There were moments where we blew sides apart, others where we played a very defensive game. I think the change in styles each week is tricky for players to play under. You have to be adaptable and the injuries did not help either and so occasionally we just looked like we did not know what we doing and got our backsides handed to us.

Wigan on the other hand do have a very strong defensive ethos, they can blow a side a way, by keeping them pegged back for the first 20 - 30 minutes. But I also think if you can match them in that opening salvo, stopping their attack in the same fashion that is when they can come undone. Holding them to a tight game means it then comes down to attacking players making the difference in the last 20 minutes of a game and even Wigans defense can't tackle for a full 80.

We have to be very careful when appraising Ian Millward's strategies and tactics. I mean, there's absolutely no doubt about the fact that he completely revolutionised the game. And arriving into SL after success at Leigh he found precisely the right team with the right group of players who could execute his fast-paced, high-octane style of football to the letter.

Most people correctly identify the essentials of Millward's gameplan. Which makes me wonder why so few also recognise that Millward was a born high-stakes gambler who'd compete with distinction at the top table in Vegas against James Bond and the entire Oceans XI. No coach before or since has been as willing to throw the dice. And no coach has seen the dice tossed back repeatedly and consistently in his favour.

Like all the best coaches (including Brown) Millward never allowed any of the multitude of SL distractions divert his attention from The Objective. Post match he'd cheerily talk about [i"Taking one game at a time"[/i. But if you were to ask him I'm sure he'd say he knew which teams he had to beat and how many times [ubefore [/uthe season started. Which is why Saints so often simply didn't turn up and took a caning. [i'Sure, losing to Leeds by 70 looks bad. But if we turn over Castleford and Wakefield away in the two following games because we took a break - super'. [/i

Super League winners rings and Challenge Cup medals speak for themselves I guess.

It's a pity his record was tarred at Wigan. He must, of course, shoulder some of the responsibility. But that club was a catastrophe waiting to happen long before Millward arrived. And I could just never understand the logic of Wigan jumping in for him - not because of his record - but the mental state he was in following his protracted and highly-publicised battle with McManus (which at one point threatened to tear the club apart)

Walmsley is an absolute BEAST. To be honest, I can't believe people are questioning his abilities.

Yes, it's taken him a bit of time to acclimatise to SL (expected, given that he is a bit of a late starter). But you only need look at the Grand Final winner's photo to realise this kid has the kind of physique coaches literally drool over.

I mean, there's still work to do but even so - the last person you want to see after twenty minutes of Masoe whacking/dropping on/trampling over you is a guy like Walmsley who is every bit as physical (albeit differing in delivery) and surprisingly fleet-footed.

He is a walking-talking black hole sucking down great chunks of the opposition's energy each minute he is on. I can't imagine how hard it must be arm-wrestling him as the ball carrier. It's noticeable that Alex's introduction as final prop rotation pretty much killed Wigan. You could see their forwards physically wilt when he arrived on the scene.

Given the world is caving in around them (according to Cherry and white) , Saints are the reining champions and we are currently unbeaten despite a mini injury crisis is it time for a return of the now famous (even though '[ithat lot[/i over the hill might not like it) Envy-O-Mater??



I think so

Still got this one book marked Rogues ??

The debate I had on this thread with Phuzzy regarding Wigan and Saints' packs is significantly more relevant now than it was when it was done. Saints' forwards have upped it even further whilst Wigan's game has moved even further away from a traditional RL game of using props for territory. It is no coincidence that Wigan's lack of using their props is massively impacting their ability to actually go forwards.

To think, not long ago, Wiganers, with a straight face, reckoned Amor wouldn't make their 17 and Walmsley is only the equal of the likes of Clubb and Crosby. Laughable really.

It'd be interesting to see some of their views now.

Go over to cherry & white and ask them. On second thoughts you'll probably get banned.

Hahahahaha

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=577416&start=80 This has got some crackers in it as well. This one's a good one. Quote ="NickyKiss"Crosby is vastly under-rated IMO and as already pointed out not a single Wigan fan would agree with Dudson being better then him. I expect big things from Crosby this year who really looks to be developing year on year. Not a great deal in the packs between both clubs really. I certainly wouldn't swap and I'd take our back row options all day long but the props are pretty even and if Roby starts this year as he finishes last he'll make a real difference to your side. Some good battles ahead this year I reckon.'"

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=577416&start=80 This has got some crackers in it as well. This one's a good one. Quote ="NickyKiss"Crosby is vastly under-rated IMO and as already pointed out not a single Wigan fan would agree with Dudson being better then him. I expect big things from Crosby this year who really looks to be developing year on year. Not a great deal in the packs between both clubs really. I certainly wouldn't swap and I'd take our back row options all day long but the props are pretty even and if Roby starts this year as he finishes last he'll make a real difference to your side. Some good battles ahead this year I reckon.'"