Charnock and even Lance I can understand but Wello cant pass and runs like he's dragging a truck in a worlds strongest man comp and Howarth is best suited to bringing on the water. Brown will kill what remains of this season (i.e the chance to blood Charnock and maybe Yates) if he persists with these odd and poor selections

Every player that was kept on too long will have his defenders though, look at Meli now.

I've no issue with youth being given it's chance, I know that you did not rate Ashurst, Dixon, et al and time has proven you correct, but they did jobs for the team, didn't let anyone down and have been replaced by more youth who will hopefully turn out to be better (Greenwood and Walker for example). The experienced players brought in have failed to live up to the standard that had been set under Millward and Anderson.

We've bought two big names in Hohaia and Laffranchi, neither have worked out. Players such as Gardner, Meli (one of them should have been binned off 2/3 years ago) and Wellens should have been replaced before now.

Have we been hamstrung by the fact that our youth half backs have been very promising? Eastmond, Lomax and Gaskell all have aspects to their games that promised much, had they not come through at the times they did, would we have made more of an effort to sign a half back?

We've also had the issue of the stadium, which is likely to be the main issue for me, it's obvious that not only has it's development maybe taken the management focus from the team, it's also taken the funding away from the pitch with stories of us not spending up to the cap. The roof redesign and the cladding issue will again take away focus from putting money onto the pitch, but if the club hasn't got it, it can't spend it.

He's got to pick lance at stand off to partner wilkin. Both ain't halfbacks and both ain't good enough but IMO they should be the halves.

Howarth has looked very poor the last three games and doesn't look a super league standard player so I'd pick the young lad until Roby is fit.

I'd also play Percival from the start from now on if he keeps this current form up, he's actually the best centre at the club.

I cant imagine we will see a lot of Charnock, Yates or Speakman until we start to get a bit of momentum back into our game. It would be stupid to throw such young half backs into a team playing so poor with only Soliola showing any quality out of the senior players.

I don't think they are keen on Charnocks aggressive side either pretty much the same as Wheeler when he broke through they wanted it out of his game.

We mentioned this 2 years ago that McManus will struggle to battle on all fronts with a new stadium and new players.
No 1 priority is long term survival with the risk of a longer term transitional player period.
You could say we are in recession with quality player availabilty, just shows how standards have fallen when we are considering Michael Dobson.

I assume you mean OUR standards have fallen?

Apparently we are spent up to salary cap level so we are paying full whack for a lot of dross. (Perry, LaFranc, HiHo etc).
Walmsley, Percival, TM & Lomax will not be on mega bucks.

Its the whole clubs fault and that lies with Mcmanus, he is running our club into the ground. Poor recruitment selections, hanging onto people past there sell by date like a mouldy piece of bread etc....

Were one of the biggest clubs in the world of RL and we have the Stuart Howarth and Paul Wellens (Jon Wilkin) as our half backs. That is nothing short of disgracefull by the recruitment team and owners.

I tell you one thing if this was Wigan then Peryy and Hohiah would be on the first plane home and Dobson and Chase would be brought in, forget the salary etc.. Teams have proved you can get round that. Saints have no intention of putting this right.

If Mcmanus doesent have the funds to take us forward then its up to him to sell, many interested parties would bite his hand off.

I for one will not be re-newing my season ticket.

McManus isn't the one who's changed your team's ethos, he only appointed the man responsible for that. Nathan Brown has tried to change the philosophy that has been running through your club for decades. From concentrating on playing open and expansive football, you now seem more interested in slowing down the PtB by wrestling and targeting opposition playmakers with cheap shots. It's never been Saints way of playing and as a neutral, it doesn't make pretty viewing.

In my (far from humble) opinion, it is the change in your style of play, rather then missing halfbacks, that is mainly responsible for your current shortcomings

We need some home truths here...

We came into the season under equipped again.

Since James Graham left our props simply haven't been competitive in the big games. Against big packs, our pack cannot compete - just go back to games last season against big packs when they've turned up. Warrington at home twice are perfect indicators, James Roby was kicking on the 4th tackle regularly from the 30m and 40m line to get us out of our own half because the pack wasn't taking us forward. Hull KR 's pack completely outmuscled and outgunned our pack, and Walmsley and Soliola apart (again) we have no answer. Without James Graham we wouldn''t have made the 2011 Grand Final. He led us, he drove us forward and on his own he dominated packs. We replaced him with an average 2nd rower who just isn't upto the job. Look at our current pack, we have just two props in the whole squad - Perry and Walmsley. In three years Perry has played about 20 games, which is a pathetic return. When he plays he's half decent and he does give us some go forward, but he has been a huge disappointment and should go at the end of the year. We cannot afford to be wasting a quota spot and big chunks of our cap on players who don't play a 2/3's of the season. The rest of our props bar Walmsley constantly disappoint. Laffranchi is really average. The decision to sign him to replace Graham was a head scratcher. I genuinely can't think of a highlight in Laffranchi's Saints career, he just isn't of the standard required for us and he should go at the end of the year. LMS is another that consistently disappoints. I think as a 4th choice prop coming off the bench he would do a decent job but as a 1st choice prop he just doesn't do it and goes missing when the going gets tough. Clough is another blown up 2nd rower and should be 5th choice prop at best. Puletua is very hit and miss. When he's good he's fantastic but in too many big games like Laffranchi and LMS doesn't give us the go forward required. It is a must that we bring in at least TWO big men for next season otherwise we'll be playing on the back foot in the big games against big packs.

We came into the season with just one half back - Gary Wheeler. I'm fed up of reading about Lee Gaskell. He had one half decent season in his debut year in 2011. Last season when he played he was poor, when given a chance early on this season he was poor. He's moved to Salford and he hasn't been playing at 6 or 7 for them. If he isn't playing there for Salford, what makes anyone think he's good enough to play there for Saints? He isn't the answer, end of story. I feel for Jon Wilkin, because he isn't a number u and is being asked to do a job there. To be fair to him, he's done OK but it's like asking a bus to race in formula one. As for Wheeler, his injury record is terrible. We can't rely on him to be our 1st choice 6 because we don't get more than 4 games out of him at a time. We basically came into the season with no halves, the only team in the league without any. There is no control to our play, no direction and no kicking game. We need a new 6 and 7.

This leads to the problems we're currently seeing on the pitch. There is no lack of effort from the team, we simply haven't got the players anymore to compete in the biggest games. No coach can turn this around without recruiting good players at prop and in the halves.

I disagree entirely.

So do i

I think it's pretty obvious why we aren't doing well atm.

The is a few reasons mate.

We playing with a backrow at scrumhalf, playing with wello/Howarth/hohaia at 6 and non are halves, we got injuries to key attacking players, we had 12 men yesterday and also, we just ain't the team some fans think we are.

Poor recruitment is our problem, simple as. We let other teams beat us to players, e.g. Moon to Leeds, Taylor to Wigan, and bring in over the hill Aussies with no fight or quality. Can't blame Brown for that, but playing Wellens at 6 and bringing in Howarth seem dodgy moves.

I said in 2008/2009 that this would happen and nobody believed me, the signs was there. We'd stopped signing players as the likes of scully,longy, KC etc was getting old.

I hate to say it but the club lost ambition and that's why we are now at middle table club.

Why not play Jordan Turner at six he's played there before for Salford hasn't he and the odd game for Hull I think

It would be an option and probably not a bad one. Howarth and Wello are just so bad there it's making us a laughing stock

Agree with this. As a Hull fan who wears any team's coloured spectacles if they're playing Rovers it was obvious even to blinkered me that Saints came out to play wrestling dirty rugby. You were lucky to only lose Meli in that first half.

That's not St Helens, but sadly it does appear to be Brown's way. I like your club a lot and have massive respect for you as do most RL fans. People don't like Leeds much. Or Wigan. Or Wire. But no-one seems to hate Saints. That's because you've always been seen go do things fairly both as a club and on the field. This season's style is an anathema to you and therefore isn't working.

(Oh, and Brown isn't using Manu right, either. Which is why you're not seeing him at his best when he's played.)

I think a lot of the problems we currently have at Saints are the result of sheer bad luck.

Perry has been a shadow of the player he was in the NRL, that's when he's been able to take to the field. Hohaia was a bit of a gamble, which has very much not paid off - but at the time we'd just had Lomax & Gaskell emerging as a very promising halfback pairing. I remember Lafranchi having a very decent first season. He was making the transition from 2nd row to prop (like so many players who've become top-class props) and looked like he'd kick on in his second season. But he's gone backwards.

Each of these have been marquee players for us, had no question marks about their quality at the time of signing, and to have all three fail has been rank misfortune.

So has the stunted development of Lomax, Gaskell & Wheeler as halfbacks - each for entirely different reasons. You can't legislate for that; after 2011, most fans & pundits believed Lomax & Gaskell complimented each other well and were the future halfback pairing for the club.

On the coaching side, Potter came here with good credentials. He'd coached a fairly entertaining Catalans and looked a good appointment. But he wasn't up to the job and instilled an overly cautious approach to our play. But even this wasn't entirely his fault. Rule changes (or, at least, changes to the interpretations of the rules) to allow a slowing of the ptb, wrestling the tackled player on the floor and shorter defensive lines, meant that Saints' style of play (with quick ptb's taking advantage of a disorganised defence) was diminished. But his tenure started the rot.

Saying all that, there have been failings. Some individual players appear to have been handled poorly by both coaching staff and management. We've been unfocused in terms of player recruitment, at times buying a player because they're available, then seeing how to fit them into the team. The standard of player we've brought in to replace departing players has often been lower. With hindsight, 2012 was wasted in terms of player development, as Rush tried to achieve as much for the club as possible, but sacrificed the progression of youngsters in the process.

But Brown isn't blameless this season. We all too often look clueless in attack, and we must employ the tactic of dummy runners the least out of all SL clubs (this going back to Potter's time). The team too often looks unbalanced, and there's too much chopping & changes. I know injuries have caused a lot of this, but the selection policies have been baffling at times, and it's like a 'hit & hope' approach without a longer term plan.

In summary, the reason we sit where we do is a combination of bad luck, some poor coaching appointments, and unfocused player recruitment.

Because he's doing a good job at centre. It would also mean having to play jones in the centres when he should be playing second row.

By Christ, this is a depressing thread. My take? I don't blame Brown in the slightest. How can you? He needs to be given 3 or 4 years to rebuild the team from the ground up.

The fans are going to have to be patient and understand that we are severly lacking in the major pivot positions either due to injury or bad recruitment. I am seriously hoping we will be implementing a firesale in pre-season.

I blame Brown for causing unnecessary disruption to the team at the weekend by playing Howarth and Wello as our halfback combination, which is probably one reason why we were so naff in the first half - we hadn't a clue who was supposed to be doing what. It was totally dumb to mess up our pivots for a knock out game.

It would be okay for the fans if the club was making an effort to improve things. But it isn't, there is no effort or will to improve things.

Greg Eden tore us to pieces yesterday and was ultimately the difference between the sides. He moved to Hull KR for nothing. The club ignored his availability despite our coach saying he could be as good as Billy Slater. Every other club in Super League has at least two established half backs, we have none and we haven't tried to sign any either. Rangi Chase is available now and we're not doing anything. Michael Dobson is also probably available as Hull KR are in a mess financially and again, we've not even attempted anything. Why did Perry, Hohaia and Laffranchi start this season still at Saints? Why weren't they released?

In modern sport no team has 3 or 4 years to build and improve. It no longer works like that. Sport is a short term, results driven business. If the team isn't competitive the fans won't watch them in as great a number. There is a serious risk that we won't even make the play offs this year, that's how far we've dropped. The likes of Hull KR, Hull and Bradford are now arguably better teams than we are and the likes of Huddersfield, Catalans have already passed us. I posted on another thread the stats about our crowd figures. We are probably £1/2m down in terms of revenue by now due to the drop in crowds and next year is going to continue that trend if the club doesn't get back to having a team that is competing for trophies. I've been going to Saints for 25 years and this year is the first time I'm seriously debating not renewing my season ticket and I know plenty of people in that position too. The stadium is half finished and a souless place to watch sport, the team is a bunch of average players going through the motions and the entertainment value given to the fans is appalling. I really don't see how anyone can claim to enjoy watching Saints at the moment, it's more of a chore than a pleasure these days.

McManus just needs to stop being so lazy with his recruitment decisions. He's making easy choices, signing players that are okay, that will fill the gap. There is no desire or commitment to improve anything. It's time for the club to find the money and invest in the players to get us back into contention. Transfer fees are such a taboo word around the club, but it's the time now where they either have to do it or leave. There is nothing to be gained from going through the motions like we are now. We'll miss out on the commercial potential of the stadium and will still be massively loss making. Spending some money now and getting us back to being a vibrant, exciting team and having 15,000+ crowds is essential.

Very good post. I agree. There has undoubtedly been misfortune and unforseeable events. However, as you so rightly say, this isn't a sufficient excuse for the directionless play and the often baffling selection options. There are still some very good players at the club, who would walk into most SL sides as automatic selections. That we're in danger of slipping out of the top 8 is a fairly damning indictment of Brown's inability to get the best out of what he has, just as much as it is a consequence of bad luck and poor recruitment.

Jordan Turner IMO is a winger. He's got the makings of being a good centre but he needs a rocket up his bum. He's got no desire or motivation. He just goes thru the motions.

I'd honestly be looking for a centre and Turner being a winger.