Is that Wheeler naturally a centre? People give Shenton some hammer but this guy didn't look anything other then a championship plodder. Where's Gaskel and TP? Wellens has definitely had his day, but whilst he's fit, hohaia wont get a chance to play full back and will continue to be average at 6. It definitely isn't doom and gloom for you lot, as you showed when you battered leeds & wire, that you can beat anyone on your day, i think you need to just accept this year has a bit of dip then go stronger next year.

Which says it all about your team. The fact that he hogs the ball and makes so many scoots looks great from an individual stats point of view but does it always help the team, its play and its structure, as a whole. Saints fans complain about their lack of threat outwide but are that blinded that they cant see that much of this lack of threat comes from Roby directing play down the middle when there are glaring overlaps out wide. As a hooker I would expect him to be a good support player so its neither here nor there. Also he may make a lot of tackles, as most hookers do, particularly 80 minutes ones like Roby, but he doesnt hit hard and is rarely dominant like someone like McIlorum is. Horses for courses but in a close, tense match McIlorum offers more for me and is more of a starting hooker.



Of course he is. His organising from dummy half is poor and his passing is poor. I have never seen him play well when his pack is not dominant or for England for that matter. Today Saints were camped on Wigan's line and Roby consistently chose the wrong options from dummy half. If the scoot isn on he hasnt a clue.

I find it amusing that you are all only arguing about whether Roby would start in Wigans team or not. You lot obviously conceed that the rest of your team wouldnt get in the Wigan 17.

Quit the drivel you shame our town with your inane wittering.

Yes; unfortunately he is the only player that get's us to the part of the field where you need to be...you need to make yards, and it just happens that 70% of that comes through James Roby. So in answer to your bewildering question: yes making yards does help the team.



Why do you have to hit hard? As long as his tackles are effective, which they are, then I don't see the need for a player like Roby to hit hard.









Are you actually being serious with the former; the latter is a ridiculous comment considering that you could count on one hand the amount of players who have actually played well for England.



That isn't the hooker's problem...if you actually had half a rugby brain you'd see that our problem lies in the halves.



Possibly because we aren't biased or blinkered unlike some...

The highlight of the game for me was when Clare balding pointed out after the gave that the couple from saints that she said had just got married was infact brother and sister.

Isn't it Wigan people that do that sort of stuff?

Lets put this to a real test

1. tomkins 1. wellens. 1. Hodgson. In a few years time Sam but for now Brett
2. charnley 2. makinson. 2. Riley. Mmmmmm Difficult all 3 are good young players.
3. goulding 3. wheeler 3. Bridge. Brdigey by a country mile.
4. carmont 4. shenton 4.Atkins. Ryan by another country mile
5. richards 5. meli 5. Joel or Pat both good. But Meli


6. finch 6. lance 6. Briers Lee all the way.
7. tommy 7. lomax 7. Myler Tommy.
8. mossop 8. perry 8. Moz. Moz all day long.
9. micky 9. roby 9. Monas M Difficult but on this season for James
10. prescott 10. lafranchi 10. Carvell. Carvell.
11. hansen 11. afro top 11. Trent. Trent.
12. hock 12. TP 12. Super Ben. Super Ben but Hock and TP are very good.
13. o'loughlin 13. wilkin 13. Grix. O'loughlin.

Ah, back to Planet Sanity thankfully.... Wheeler is a #6 all the way - he just doesn't have the basic size or physicality to play #4 at the very highest level but is doing a good job there nevertheless due to his inate talent more than anything else. I just hope to God that Brown can see this, that he can stay fit for some kind of length of time and that we can find a decent kicking/organising #7 to go alongside him.

so you understand possible bias, i am a wigan fan. id argue 1, but could concede being more aware of sams weaknesses than hodgsons. id also argue 8 and 10, as carvell and morley as far as im aware have been worse than last season. neither mossop nor prescott have put together a good run of games this season, but i believe theyll have proved themselves to doubters come the end of the season.

Mossop is far better than Prescott, who'll be no more than an average SL player.

The game (sadly) went as I thought it would. We just seemed to rush things near the line and again we looked weak compared to Wigan. The only thing that surprised me was how many mistakes Wigan made. It was a good thing to, if Wigan had played well it could have been a lot worse. Thanks to the usual suspects, McLorum, Hock, etc for that. In the end scoring was too easy for Wigan once they got near our line.

Looking at Saints it seems to be the same men once again. Hohaia and Wellens killed of our attacks better than any Wigan defender. We looked dangerous when Lomax, Roby or Wilkin have ball in hand but once one of our two handicaps gets hold of it they get tackled, Wigan hold down for 3-4 seconds and any momentum is lost.

Our front row is weak, not one man is guilty but none step up and make serious metres or put on some big hits. We have two good attacking wingers but our centres are unwilling to pass to them and are unable to make a break.

Our backrowers were good as well as Lomax who was forced to over play but did well for a young player.

With exception of Soliola would we notice if all our overseas players got deported??

Come on then, who are all these Saints players that would make the Wigan 17, or indeed the starting 13?

I'd keep Laffranchi too. He didn't have his best game today but he's been our best prop all season and has a great offloading game when on song. But as for the rest I would be very happy to see the lot sent packing, and I include TP in that too as he can be lazy in defence and also in his willingness to take up the ball sometimes. He used to pass to Jammer a lot.

We just miss Jammer in the forwards. We have nobody anywhere near his callibre or with his fire or willingness to take up the ball.

Get real! Player for player you're not in the same league at the moment! Wellens or Tomkins? Finch or Hohaia? Your pack, Roby and Soliola (when he's in the pack) aside, is distinctly second rate. Sure, good coaching makes a big difference; something I pointed out in a thread on this very board when, after the first round of matches, you were all gloating about what a mistake 'The Ape' was going to be and how Wigan were looking at a swift decline. Top of the league and in the semi-final of the Challenge cup. Not bad for a 'mistake' eh? Some of you desreve to be eating humble pie right now...



A serious question for you now. Are you really that blind that you think your current team is capable of playing our structures? Wellens isn't quick, inventive or elusive enough, Your pack isn't aggressive enough and your halves aren't capable of controlling a game. One more question. Are you seriously suggesting that Tony Smith, a coach who has been a success and won trophies at several sides isn't capable of putting structures in place that would allow them to be top of the league (er....a bit like he did last year for example) if the players were up to it? The bottom line is that Warrington aren't at the top this season because they are too reliant on aging, injury prone players, specifically Lee Briers, Adrian Morley and Brett Hodgeson. They're still capable of turning in good performances...just not as regularly as they'd need to to be top of the table currently.

You say you aren't taking anything away from Wigan but, in fact, that's exactly what yoy ARE trying to do by suggesting that you'd be top of the league if you played with our structures. If it was that simple why have successive coaches been able to get you playing that way? The simple truth is that you aren't as good a team as Wigan at them moment. Just as we weren't as good as the dominant Saints team of a few years ago. Or was that just because we weren't playing the right structures too and not because you had the better team?

Great post!

not to take away from a good post, but didnt maguire take the same team, add deacon, and dominate the league?

Prescott has been just as good as Mossop so far this year although they have slightly different playing styles. Mossop has a better work rate but Prescott is harder to bring down and a much better ball player. Prescott is also more important in Wigan's attacking moves and more likely to put players through gaps. I'd take both of them over LMS, Laffranchi, Perry etc.

Ithankyew!

Based on player ability/talent and not current form (which is all you'll be using to judge on naturally but which would be criminally unfair given our respective current coaching situations):

1. Tompkins
2. Richards*
3. Wheeler
4. Carmont*
5. Meli
6. Finch
7. Lomax (not a #7 but would need to be in my team somewhere and Finch would make him 10x more effective there)
8. La Frank
9. Roby
10. TP
11. Soliola
12. Hock
13. O'Loughlin
14. Mossop
15. Clough **
16. Wilkin
17. Hohaia ***

* Both look past their best, especially Richards, so you can have Charnley and Goulding instead if you want. Shenton should probably feature ahead of Goulding on the talent/ability scale, but has been so disappointing for Saints so far that I just can't justify it.

** Clough has admittedly been **** for 2 years but I'm still hopeful he'll reignite with a decent coach.

*** OK, OK I'm joking... Leuluai

I make that a 9-8 Saints win (10-7 if you still hold out any hope of Shenton coming good, 11-6 in the ever increasingly unlikely event that Perry isn't washed up now), no 3 or 4 man holding down and ground-writhing required.

And no McIlorum instead of Roby

im not sure thats a good way to analyse as surely player ability/talent should be apparent regardless of coaching should it not?

Don't be ridiculous - let me start coaching Wigan and I'll have them all looking like a bunch of National League donkeys in no time.

Indeed. Which is why I say good coaching DOES make a difference. However you can't train a donkey to win the Derby (no pun intended!

). The simple fact is that Saints, for the reasons I posted, aren't currently a good enough side to play the structures Wigan play and to suggest, as the original poster did, that if they did they'd be top of the league is disingenious. He knows better, I'm sure. As many posters on here know, I'm not one of life's gloaters. I came on here to read a Saints perspective of today's game. I wouldn't have commented normally, but the post was nonsense and demanded a response.

This is the most one eyed comment I have seen and that's from a Leeds fan!!
Your are either talking out of your Harris or taking the mick.
Roby is the best hooker in the league by far. Mclorum is ok but nowhere near the class of roby.

i agree that a coach can be rubbish and can coach players to be rubbish, but i think robys tackling wouldnt be coached out of him, nor could a kicking game be coached into lomaxs nal over any period under years.
edit not meant as an insult to lomax, just that his kicking game needs working on.

I've probably not put it across very well but I'm not saying player for player we're better than you, I agree that in that aspect you are ahead of us at the moment. What I am saying is that it's your structures that set you apart from everybody else and that if other teams worked with those structures and you worked with a different teams structures they'd probably swap around. It's your structures that make you so good.