He is not taking control of the play when it is obvious Gaskell and Lomax are struggling. This is a guy who has played entire games in the halves, dictating the pace and direction of Saints' attack (with effective passing and kicking), often to enormous effect.

Against Hull it was obvious Lomax was falling apart. Even simple passing moves were being blown, mistimed etc. During periods like these you need an experienced, tactically aware player to assume some semblance of control and relieve the pressure from the youngsters. Wilkin has done this in the past. He is not doing it now - for whatever reason.

Rubbish. It wasn't two/three years ago when Wilkin almost single-handedly guided Saints to victory in the Challenge Cup at Leeds playing at stand-off. There were NO PROBLEMS with his leadership then.

People always bang on about that Leeds game but don't forget he was rubbish the week after at stand off and was moved back to the pack during the game.

Wilkin will be remembered for that game at Leeds, a challenge cup semi against a lower league club and also that he runs good lines.

As they should. He was exceptional.



It's not like he was destined to stay in that role forever. The positional change was purely temporary because of injuries. And Wilkin has performed a similar role - with varying degrees of success - for years. Unfortunately, he seems to have gone missing precisely when he is needed the most.

He was also superb last season when asked by Royce to cover at stand off when we had no halves left at all.

Jon Wilkin is a natural talker. He loves sharing his opinions. He knows the game inside out and has a rugby brain. He's been at Saints almost as long as Wello. Therefore, he is the natural candidate to offer guidance to our inexperienced halfbacks but he has thus far declined to do it. Without Roby on the field as well we spent the last 2.5 games with nobody giving direction and Royce lost his job as a result.

Because Wilkin is a senior player with skill, knowledge, experience and longevity at the club it is absolutely right that people have higher expectations of him than of our less experienced or newer players. He has failed to take on his responsibilities for the sake of the team IMO.

Ancient Chinese proverb:

One game in ten years does not a leader make.

He was very good last year and IMO was best backrow in super league.

I've just never rated him to be honest, he always does his tacking which I can't knock him for but he's to slow for a stand off and not big enough to play backrow.

I dont think he's rubbish but IMO he's massively overated and is living off the back of a good season in 2006 and a game at Leeds which was a one off.

To say he's a leader is laughable.

Did you watch him against Hull? He was shocking; I was right near him where he was at one stage in the second half when we were supposed to be attacking the Hull line and he was just stood around refusing to join the line. I thought he must be injured or something but he just looked confused and disinterested.
If I didn't know better it looked like fear.

I wouldn't hang him for 1 bad match but he hasn't been great this season (he's not alone there) and I know he can do better which is just annoying as I'm sure he would like to do better.
Perhaps new coaching.......?.

Nothing wrong with the coaching. Remember, he was outstanding last year. Same coach as the one we had against Hull.

Maybe Wilkin has shown leadership qualities in spades by choosing not to put himself in the way of Simmons' gameplan? A sort of 'work to rule' to show the gameplan is flawed, in the hope that Simmons changed it/got dumped? If the senior players had lost confidence in Simmons, why would you expect them to try to bale him out?

I'd prefer that to the current, tbh.

Hmmm .... winning pay?

Wilkin is pretty terrible all he cares about is media i used to think he was half decent till 3 years ago now all he cares about is how he comes across

I'd hate to see your opinion on Harrison Hansen and Sean O'Loughlin then. Terrible Jon Wilkin beats them both hands down this season at Metres made, Carries, Tackles, Tackle busts, Offloads, Clean breaks, Marker tackles, penalty rate.....you know, all the things you'd want from a back rower.

Sorry, what is Royce doing this Sunday? I can't quite remember.

That doesn't mean there was anything wrong with his coaching. Purtill went too. McManus has fired a coach before. Was he poor too? He was very successful.

You still haven't addressed my point though. Wilkin was superb last season. Last season Saints were coached by Royce. Royce also coached Saints for the first seven rounds this season. So therefore the problem with Wilkin's performance cannot be the coach.

So there's no chance Royce asked Wilkin to play a slightly different role this season and allow our slightly more experienced half backs to show what they could do? If he's playing a typical back row role, staistically, he's doing it better than Sean O'Loughlin. What do you think about that?

Purtill was an assistant coach. He probably did his job very well but I've absolutely no idea on that. No matter how well he did his job, he didn't pick the team or tell the players how to play, so just as with your Lance Hohaia statistic, it has absolutely no relevance to Jon Wilkin.

Sure there's a chance. Just as there's a chance Royce told Wilkin to play standing on his head.

Maybe his performaces have declined as all the good influence left over from Mick Potter have gradually worn off?

Deary me. Is this because your "completely anonymous" argument has been shot to pieces? Or that you're still in cloud cuckoo land that one good game in the halves against Leeds 5 years ago makes him the next Wally Lewis?



All joking aside, you say that Wilkin is capable of a good showing in the halves due to a great game he played away at Leeds. Lomax produced a masterclass at scrum half at Leeds last season, yet isn't a scrum half in the memory of man.

What's the difference?

Unfortunately, simply [isaying[/i someone's argument is "shot to pieces" doesn't make it true. And no-one has ever compared Wilkin to Wally Lewis so we can put that straw man to rest, too.



I didn't say Wilkin's performance against Leeds [ialone[/i makes him a half. I said Wilkin has - at many times during his career - functioned as an effective tactical option (in support of the likes of Scully, Long, Martyn etc.).



Since you chose to substitute your words for my argument and then argue against them claiming success - you tell me?

I'd have thought a man of your intellingence would have noticed that I put a

after the Lewis comment. In your very first post on this matter you said Wilkin had been completely anonymous this season. He hasn't been. Nowhere near in fact. He's been poorer in attack granted but as I've already said, show me a player in the current Saints line up other than Roby and Sia who are performing to their ability. To pick up on Wilkin who has been nowhere near our worst performer surprises me.

I'm also surprised that you went from [i"completely anonymous"[/i in one post to [i"No one disputes whether Wilkin is putting the work in"[/i in another. It confused me.

Now that I realise your major gripe is that Wilkin isn't taking enough pressure off the halves, I can agree in part. The fact that you in no way, shape or form agree that Royce's coaching could have come into is what I don't agree with and I certainly don't think Wilkin has stopped moving into the halves or producing certain runs because he is thinking about his testimonial. If he was prioritising his testimonial, I'd imagine his whole game would suffer, not just part of it.



I agree. Again, you're taking a tongue in cheek comment the wrong way.








Your words. It just took me a while to understand what you were actually saying.

I'm not sure why a back rower is carrying the can for us looking awful in the halves, just because he has filled in there in the past.

He isn't taking it for that reason though, as I think you know. The suggestion is that because he has the experience there, is a talker anyway, and is one of Saints' longest serving senior players he should have been taking on the role of leader. It's not like he is a shy retiring type is it? And when he has played well in the halves, he has known how to lead the team around.

Message board posts don't exist in a vacuum. They are set against a contextual backdrop of former contributions. Since I have publicly - to the point of weariness - defended Wilkin's workrate (and, prior to this season, entire game) for the best part of six years I didn't think it necessary to re-state what is a matter of fact.



At NO point did I say it is impossible Royce was, in some way, to blame. The problem is I've no evidence to support that fact - other than Wilkin's performance - which isn't evidence.