Like i said on a thread on CW, our front row could probably stand up to any in the world, and definitely the best in superleague, your backrow is better, and your strength in depth is impressive, they must all be working for peanuts

Dry roast in fact.

Saints pack will be nowhere near that of Wigans.

Wigans train at Orrell and Saints will be training at Cowley. So yes you are right they will be miles apart.

Wigan avoided our pack in the grand final. Maguire knew that Wigan had the advantage in the backs and the halves rather than the forwards.

What? Wigan smashed the Saints pack in the final, granted we scored our points out wide but we'd have never got those chances had we not fronted up and beaten the Saints pack.

I thought the packs were fairly even.

The difference lay in Tomkins returning the ball exceptionally well following our poor kicking performance giving you better field position to work from.

You pack was driving you towards our 20m line starting from your 40m line, ours was getting us to the half way line from our 10m line.

Fair enough. I just dispute the statement "Wigan avoided our pack in the grand final". I think that's far from the truth.

Top four for 2011.

Wigan
Saints
Hudds
then either Leeds or Wire.

I'd agree with you, if your pack hadn't fronted up we'd have bashed you all over the place.

Without peeing on your Fire, hoffman don't really want to be here and not great, lima ain't even first choice for kiwis, hock ( if he's back fir pies) ain't played rugby for 2yrs.

The list you've put earlier in the thread don't send any fear really. Fielden had 1 good year in 4yrs, coley, hanson, tuson, Prescott, Mick mac are all average.

You can't rite our pack off from the cup final display, our pack has been awesome this year and also been better than yours over the course of the year.

We've probably sold around 3000 '5 year season tickets' plus the annual renewal ones!!!! So I hardly think attendances will drop from 9500 average if not higher, to a paltry 4000!! I think we'll average at least 7500 even at Widnes.

Oh right, there I go being all pessimistic.

Do you think that Ashurst, Magennis and Dixon are better than Farrell, Tuson and Mossop, or that Wilkin is better than Tomkins or Hansen?

Look at the strength in depth. Injuries WILL happen to all sides, and I believe Wigan packwise are in a better position than any other team cover for them.

It's not like you at all is it

We'll see who is closest. 4000 or 7500+.

Saints to scrape 4th I reckon. Further transition next year and I think it will take a while for Simmons to sort us out and get us playing well.

Farrel and Mossop look like they could turn out to be very good players, but i've never seen Tuson do much, when i've watched Wigan (albeit mostly on Telly).

Wilkin is better than Hansen, no doubt about that in my mind. Also, Tomkins is a difficult one, he started the season like a house on fire and looked very good but then i think he started to slump a little bit, and started to do some silly things, like the kicking out incident. He needs to cut them out of his game if he's to become the player he can. At the minute, i'd say Wilkin is a better all round player than Tomkins.

As others have said, Wigan might have plenty of options but they don't have too many players in the pack that put fear into the opposition i don't think.

Pull the other one. Wilkin ain't a patch on Joel.

Good way to back up your post. The stats aren't even massively in Tomkins favour, considering Tomkins has played a lot more games than Wilkin. They are also very different types of players.

Joel Tomkins was very good for Wigan for the first half of the season, second half of the season though, i've not been overly impressed with him, he does some pretty stupid things, and i think he's trying to hard to be the 'hard man'. Cut that out of his game and he has a lot of potential, but he is by no means the finished article.

This year Wilkin's been pretty bloody average, you'd much rather have Tomkins. The Wilkin of a couple of years ago you may have an argument for, but not at the moment imo.

He's been injured for half the season. I rate Wilkin and i think he does an awful lot more than what people give him credit for. He has also played a fair few games out of position this season, which means he's not played many games this season in his actual position, so it's difficult to judge Wilkin on this season.

I agree, Farrell looks to be a very good player but it's early days and he's only had one season in super league. Teams will no more about him next year and most young players suffer in the 2nd season but i think he will be a good player( i'll give you that one)

Mossop looks hit and miss to me, he looked very good at hudds and on his return to wigan looked good early on but then was hit and miss. He also seems to struggle with injuries.

Tuson is average and will be knocking around lower super league side over the next few years.

Dixon has had a very good season imo, i don't think he will be a world beater but he looks solid enough.

Ashurst, i couldn't see what all the fuss was as i didn't see what he could bring to the side but before he got injured he was showing signs of a good wide running 2nd row but im still unsure.

Magennis looks good, he has something to his game with his off loads, he don't just want to make the numbers up but wants to make a impact but i think his injuries over the last two years will prevent him being the star he could have been.

I was not saying that Wigan avoided a forward battle because they were scared/overpowered etc etc. They just knew that they had a big advantage elsewhere. The evidence is where Wigan scored their tries Gleeson 2 (centre), Goulding (wing), Tomkins (running at Flannery in the centres) plus the two disallowed tries Farrell and Leuleui were scored running at the Centres.

A victory for good coaching and a game plan if ever there was one.

I agree with this. I also think his upturn in form coincided with his physique maturing quite alot. i thought he looked a bit weedy for a backrower at first, but he's put a bit of weight on and all of a sudden has a good althetic frame.

We haven't seen a lot of Mcgennis, but the little we have has been impressive. He fell behind Ashurst and Dixon due to injury as (we're informed) he was always the most promising youngster. Now there's a new coach and all the players have a reletively clean slate, we may see a lot more of him.

Wigan
Saints
Warrington
Huddersfield

Wigan/Saints
Saints/Wigan
Leeds/Hudds
Hudds/Leeds/Wire
Wire/Hull KR

Saints
Wigan
Wire
Leeds
Huddersfield

in any order depending on injuries as the season progresses.