Christ we lose two games against a very good Leeds side and now all of a sudden we can't win in the rain. What a load of rubbish.

Agree

According to young Mr Wellens in his testimonial glossy, they didn't play to the conditions and that was their problem. Of course, we no doubt could have told them that at the time, and some of us did (loudly and with dull regularity) but there you go.

I,m not sure if you are entirely correct here.

For the last 10 years Saints have relied on fast play the balls and hard fast grounds to keep momentum over long periods of time, when this happens they are unbeatable.

Last couple of years the play the balls are much slower and Leeds are very good at slowing down this area especially in bad weather.

The one thing that Saints still have over other teams is "speed of thought" when attacking, we don,t have the fastest backline but we do have the ability to suddenly spark into life which makes us an unpredictable exciting team, which is the saints way.

If the weather is bad and Leeds keep it tight with a good kicking game, Leeds will win.
If we get good weather and open Rugby I,d put my money on Saints.

Leeds are a quicker team than us. The current Saints backline is one of the slowest I've seen in years.



They are taken away because a) their distance kicking is ahead of ours (a problem which manifested itself when Martyn retired and is no further to being solved now as it was then) and b) they tackle like demons. Long cannot be relied upon for kicks upwards of 40m. He simply does not have the leg strength. Why we insist upon asking him to do that which he is incapable of is a mystery.



The rain doesn't help, but it's not the insurmountable problem you're making it out to be. The more people purport this myth the greater its chances of taking root and developing into self-fulfilling prophecy - a psychological block (it may already have). Saints have played well in the rain against good defences in the past. It needn't be difficult. You simply adjust your tactics to suit the conditions. In our previous matches with Leeds one of the major issues was ball security: players either coughing up the ball (in many cases these were unforced errors) or passing when the pass isn't on. Leeds, OTOH, played safety first rugby until the game was out of sight. As far as I am aware, the Rhinos don't have buckets instead of hands, which means the problem is rectifiable without the aid of new players. Another problem area is the short kicking game near the line. Under Anderson (and Millward) we have consistently placed greater value on kicking to score rather than kicking to retain possession. Leeds aren't similarly minded. They are quite happy to settle for two, three or four repeat sets because they know it will drain energy reserves which will lead to opportunities later on when the defence tires. We've been murdered this way in both GFs. Again, solving this problem requires no new investment in players - merely an adjustment in mindset. And while we're on the subject of kicking let me mention the woeful drop-out kicker that is Paul Wellens. If his is the longest drop out at the club we might as well give up. It's costing us a good ten to fifteen metres each time we ground the ball in our own in goal.

Here here bro...this is a very important and big facet of the game. Yet for years I find myself screaming at the top of my voice as we time N time again let the team of the hook on the last tackle with a woefull kick.

Another kicking ploy I hate is the way we kick off after a try been scored, were like gentlemen, we simply kick it back to them with no thought about slamming it,, toeying it, knocking it along the floor etc etc..we simply just lob it back to them and off we go again in defence. Get that ball slammed, toe poke the mother towards th side line, get it bouncing and bobling, make it so it gives the bloke its going towards somethign to think about.

Both teams ideal conditions is dry as both like to play expansive rugby packed with offloads. The difference is Leeds don't play as rapid at the PTB as St Helens do which costs you guys dear in the wet. Saints seem to go for fast forwards and backs meaning a more mobile but smaller pack who run more angles and perhaps play slightly more expansive stuff in centre field whereas Leeds have fast, mobile backs with terrific handling skills complimented with big, tough, no nonsense forwards who lay the platform and are good at turning in the tackle to get a slower, more acurate offload to speedy halfbacks or Brent Webb. This lays Leeds' platform for superb support play which makes them very difficult to stop. This bigger more Biff-like pack are better in the wet because of this style whereas the backs, just like Saints need to adapt to the climate.

Having watched a repeat of the GF again recently, it is clear that Saints didn't play at all well. Leeds adapted to the conditions perfectly and took advantage of our own mistakes.

Leeds' deep kicking game is a massive advantage on Saints on the big pitches. We continually are bringing the ball back from our own line and with the smaller pack, that inevitably tells over the game. In contrast, our kicks generally see Leeds bringing it back from their 20 metre line. That makes a massive difference over the course of the game.

Leeds for me player the wider game and flood the fringes more than Saints. Our back row tend to play a far more central game and not off the threequarters so much. We look to isolate the centre and wingman to make it a one on one defence where our more skilled centres tend to come out on top whereas the Rhinos tend to send numbers down the flanks to create an inevitable overlap. They are the far more workmanlike team as well, they are quite happy to play the 4 drives and deep kick routine to win the territorial battle and take the points against a tired side.

To be honest, to beat Leeds in the GF, either in the wet or the sun, we need to improve our intelligence in the way we play. We need to come away from the emotional side of who we playing and play simple. We prove time and again that we are the superior side and then have a brain fart in the big one and lose through Leeds playing the game intelligently. To be honest, they made Saints look inadequate last year because of how naive we were at OT.

One thing about that GF ... part of the way Leeds successfully adapted to the conditions was that they very often kicked on the 4th tackle, which meant that our wingers hadn't dropped back. This meant they got maximum yardage out of their kicking game and really put pressure on us. We, by contrast, were panicking and flinging the ball about in our own half on the last tackle.

Incidentally though, Long's distance kicking was excellent on Friday before he had to leave the field.

GF 2008 summed up perfectly... oh and "it rained" never forget the rain ok.