Thats fine, we don't have any utility players!

But no-ones slagging of Flash and Jones (currently).
We all acknowledge Turner has his faults, mainly based around decision making in defence, but they're far from the top of out list of things to be fixed imo.

Serious ? You don't think that left edge is near the top of the list of things that need fixing?

That left edge is massive massive problem and 100% near the top of the list.

And has it occurred to you that the main issue with our left hand side edge might actually be a little bald man wearing a number 7 shirt?

Turner has always had faults defensively, but for the early part of the season he was looking a lot better and more confident - even down to shooting out of the line and actually making tackles.

What exactly has changed between then and now??? Earlier in the year we had Wilkin (who is good defensively) operating the half role on our left hand side. We looked a lot tighter and players would have confidence in Wilkin to make his tackles. Cue Walsh coming back in (who lets face it isnt there to tackle but is one of worst defenders I have seen this season) and we look a lot worse.

Maybe it is down to a combination of Walsh's bad defence, and Turner making different decisions due to a lack of confidence in the ability of Walsh but either way our left hand side defence has looked miles worse since Walsh came back in. Maybe Walsh and not Turner is the biggest problem

Had it occurred to you read my posts?

I've said having walsh and Turner tohether is a open invitation to attack us but Turner was a poor defender at salford, poor defender at hull and he's still a poor defender at saints. We been miles open on the left ever since Turner arrived as every man and his dog knows he can't defend.

As you say, we now have walsh next to him that makes it 100 times worse.

Turner's defence didn't tighten up, it's been poor all year. He's 11th in the league for missed tackles, you think this only started when Walsh came into the team? And that stat doesn't even fully illustrate the problem because it doesn't reflect the times where he makes a bad decision causing someone to go through a gap where he should have been, like Leeds' final try in the CC Semi Final.

For your theory that Wilkin fixed the problem and Walsh is now causing it, despite Turner's defence being poor all year: Walsh has missed 28 tackles in 11 games this year. In his 12 games at halfback, Wilkin missed about 35. Turner missed about 36 tackles with Wilkin as his halfback, and only around 20 with Walsh there.

Not saying Turner is the cause of this either, but the last match, with Jones as his centre, is the only match Walsh has missed no tackles this year.

it has occured to me to read your posts...

The point I am making is that at the beginning of the season (pre-Walsh coming back) Turner's defence was actually looking good. He was moving up well and making good, hard tackles and stopping plays out wide before they became dangerous. It is only since Walsh came back it has got worse. Granted JT misses a lot of tackles, everybody knows that, but our left hand edge wasnt leaking tries/breaks galore in like we are now. It has got 1000% worse since Walsh came back and I would say the finger of blame points firmly at said little man in the 7 shirt before Turner as to how suspect our left hand side defence is.

turner has been one of our stand out performers for most of the season and I think its harsh some of the criticism thats been aimed at him. Also very disappointed (if its true what I have heard) that he is only on the bench for tonight's game with Jones staying in the centre...after watching Hull v Cas last week, the defence of Sa & Lineham is very suspect (would make Turner look world class in defence stakes). We should have him attacking those as it could be a great opportunity to score points...Jones is better defensively but isnt anywhere near as good with ball in hand as Turner



Not sure where you are getting those stats from, but Turner has missed 55 tackles so far this season with 28 of them being in the games Walsh has played in so that doesnt really add up. I wasnt saying that turner only misses tackles when Walsh is there (as said above we all know he is good for missing 2-3 a week). My point is that our left hand side defence wasnt being targeted and pulled to pieces earlier on in the season like it is now and the difference in that is Walsh has returned. Walsh (when fit) is a great ball player and obviously has to defend somewhere in the line, but pinning all the blame on Turner for our left side problems is very harsh considering he has Walsh who cant tackle, and Swift outside him who has a habit of shooting out of his line and being out of position.

FWIW I was at a wedding a couple of weeks ago and was talking to a current SL player about the same thing, and he even admitted that his team would attack Saints differently when Walsh is in the team as they know how much he struggles to cope defensively in comparison to having Wilkin in same role so would trust what he was saying

Fair enough but Wilkin didn't position himself on the wing in defence so the comparisons are difficult. Clearly Wilkins is a better tackler than Walsh and we looked more stable when he played at HB.

Walsh has been a major disappointment at HB and added to that is his very poor defence. But as a major big name signing he won't be dropped.

My initial reaction to Turner being on the bench was disappointing, but when you think about it we are leaking points in the first 20 mins, so Jonesy might tighten things up defensively but you can,t bet money on it at the moment.

We are still far too soft in the tackle down the middle, which causes and exposes the problems out wide, for tonight I would like to see a lot more dominating tackles shutting the opposition down, especially offloader Liam watts. If we allow Hull freedom to run. then they will gain a lot of confidence that they can win this game.

The clock is running down for Walsh and Burns to get there act together, they have got these 2 home games to get the team playing into form towards the business end.

Walsh and Burns are not just a disappointment they are a disaster. We all expected a dynamic duo and have ended up with a pathetic pair. As a previous poster said time is running out for them.

I shall await the melt down with interest.

Have other teams upped their game or have we got worse.

where's rommel no comments tonight ????

You need to face reality that we are awful at the moment. No excuses of injuries etc as Hull had severe injuries. We are just not good enough!

Kyle amor sat in the stands while that big fat waste of space is sat on the bench watching. He must have made four carries all night.

Walsh had his worst game in a saints shirt and that says it all really.

The pack not good enough and the backs are one if the worst in super league but don't worry we have Peyroux arriving next year to sort our problems out.

thought your forwards where well beaten up the middle tonight,saying that wouldn't surprise me to see you get to old Trafford, good luck

There were two matches - Leeds at home and Huddersfield away - where Wilkin played the first half at halfback and Walsh the second, so I just said half the missed tackles for each player for lack of a better method. The other match was Catalan away where Walsh went off injured. Our left hand side defence has been our weak spot all year for me, it showed as early as the WCC where Reynolds made Turner look stupid.

I'm not saying it's all Turner's fault or that Walsh is a great defender. Walsh is a weak tackler, but Turner makes the problem much worse. Again, while there's no stats to back it up yet, Walsh's defence tonight seemed better than previous weeks. The fact that Turner has been moved to defend in the middle, where planting his feet early or struggling to deal with a second man play isn't as much of an issue, seems to indicate KC shares my thoughts.

Walsh's defence looked better on Friday night...is that because (from memory) he made one tackle where he came out of line and tackled Rankin? Turner was on the bench for around 60 mins and our defence was still awful...couple this with the fact that Jones is incapable of committing a defender and providing his winger with half a chance from an offload and we end up with an average to poor defensive side with no attacking threat whatsoever. IMO I would still rather have Turner in that centre than Jones...

Will be interesting to see if KC backs up his post match comments and drops Walsh for Hudds game how different things are

Would sooner have Turner in the centre with a 50/50 defence , he is our best strike player. Jones although playing well lately makes it difficult for his outside winger and quite often runs into a blind alley, defending an orthodox play he's OK but he's not much better than Turner when confronted with a 3 on 2 play, he's much better in the pack. Jones didn,t play well in defence last time out against the Giants.

I don't think KC will drop Walsh until Wilkin comes back into the side, he did mention post match that players will be taken out of the side if not performing and replaceable. In a way I,m looking forward to this match on Thursday, KC being critical of his players should in future give a bit of indication of whether certain players want to play for him. All eyes will be on our pivotal players especially Walsh who every time we,ve played the Giants has had a decent game.

He made 8 according to the match report! Our defence generally was awful yes, but our left edge defence has looked much stronger the last two games IMO. Turner isn't a bad tackler, I have no issue with his defence at loose forward, it's his decision making and footwork that I have the issue with, and this is only exposed out wide. It's a shame really because with the ball, behind Watkins he's the most dangerous centre in the league IMO. That KC feels his defensive frailties outweigh his ball-running shows the extent of the problem. I'd be curious how it would go with Turner attacking at centre and defending at loose, and Jones attacking at loose and defending at centre.



I think the pressure is more on Burns than Walsh to be honest. Burns misses as many tackles as Walsh, has less try assists despite playing 10 more matches and has given away more penalties than anyone else in the league. I can see what Walsh contributes and intends to do - he's the general, the organiser who will kick well, pick a good pass and manage the game. I've watched most of our matches this year and I still have no idea what Burns' purpose/role in the team is. His kicking game is pretty ordinary, his passing is just okay, but he isn't a runner either. He's a competitor and we as fans like that and how committed he is to the cause, but I'm not sure what his input to the team as a halfback is.

Burns is one of the players that KC told this week has to improve or he's out. Strangely walsh wasn't one of them who have been warned.

Out the side, or out the club?

Side Id imagine.

Any idea who the others were? As I said, I can at least get my head round Walsh's role and what he brings to the team. Less so with Burns beyond a desire to win.

Besides, Walsh is irreplacable till Wilkin gets back. From what I've seen so far, Quinlan could probably play as a running stand off with someone like Walsh beside him (and Tommy at fullback). Burns and Quinlan however would be a disaster

Quinlan's preferred position is Stand off.

Hang on a second - there's a big difference between looking strong against Catalans & Hull and looking strong against Leeds.



I'm not going to argue that Turner's a great tackler. But there's a hell of a lot of mitigation which it seems no one wants to talk about. This suggests to me that people have already made their minds up and see only what they want to (also known as - confirmation bias).

Personally I think the club were totally out of order dropping Turner - especially since his supposed dodgy defense won us the game against Warrington and he made two - possibly three last ditch tackles which prevented Leeds going out of sight in the first half of the CCSF.

Whatever flaws Turner possesses in his game - they existed in no lesser or greater degree at the start of this season. I'd go so far and say the same right back to the mid-point of the season before when he really started to make progress.

Which begs the question - if they are unnaceptable now, why weren't they twelve or eighteen months ago?

The kid is always one of our most potent attacking players. He has an excellent temperament. He doesn't give away needless penalties and when push came to shove last season he managed to play very well under enormous pressure in roles he's completely unfamiliar with.

IMO, he was one of the LEAST likely players to drop.

That said, I'm oddly glad that Saints have dropped him because it might encourage folk to realise that Turner's job has been made that much harder because Saints stack up defensively not only tight - but offset (which is weird because you'd expect it to be the other way around given that Percival is an outstanding defender). How many times this season have Turner & Swift been left two-on-four making successful split-second defensive decisions a zero-sum game?

You could put Gary Connelly in some of the scrapes those two have encountered and it still wouldn't make any difference. Once you commit you are either right - or expensively wrong. There's no middle ground.



What I can't understand for the life of me is why Cunningham hasn't switched Turner & Percival. We know Percy can play on the opposite side. We know he's one of the best defensive centres in Britain. This really would give us a better read on where Turner's flaws are. I just can't fathom why Kieron hasn't tried it for three or four games.



I know I've been away for a couple of weeks but Walsh sure must have been on fire if you now think he's more valuable than Burns. Reading some of the match reports it seems favourable reviews of Walsh are thin on the ground so I can't explain your reasoning.

[iSince when did being a good competitor become little more than a mediocre asset whilst someone showing almost no appetite for competition whatsoever is deemed to be more valuable?[/i

For me being a good-competitor in a fully professional rugby league club is a bit of a deal-breaker. The truth is you simply can't afford to have anyone who isn't such near your side.

The fact that Walsh is "trying" to do this and that means very little unless he starts succeeding. As I've said previously, no one doubts that a fully fit Walsh is a valuable asset. But the guy suffered a horrendous injury. The kind of injury which can end a career. I'm not saying Walsh is finished - but right now he's nowhere near ready. Personally I'd bench him until next season. Give him more time to build his confidence. Wilkin's been a better scrum half than him all season - [iand he already has a working partnership with Burns.[/i

Returning to Burns - I think Saints screwed up when they looked at Travis at Hull KR. I think they committed too early without ever checking to see whether he'd recovered from the injuries which blighted his second season. I think they were expecting the Travis Burns of his SL debut season (who, whilst not express, could shift enough to punch big holes in the opponent's defence) and were probably dismayed when, upon arrival, they realised his legs are shot.

I do think you are wrong about his kicking game, tho. At Hull KR his kicks were a major weapon (especially his aptitude for 40-20s, which are priceless in SL). I don't think he's lost that part of his game - but I do think he is a victim of our success in the forwards as well as indecision over who should really be shouldering the kicking duties.

Bear in mind, at Hull KR he was often behind an inferior pack - which meant he was receiving the ball to kick often deep into his own half. All that extra pitch worked in his favour - and he used the space well. The problems for Travis at Saints are a) he's almost never the primary kicker (which means he's getting hardly any match practice - which is bad for any kicker) and b) generally speaking our pack is pushing him far further forward than he was at Hull KR on tackle five. Deep kicks are difficult to execute when you're almost into grubber-kick range and as for 40-20s - forget it because he's almost always outside his 40 by tackle four or five.

Look, I'm not saying I'm entirely happy with Burns overall contribution. [iBut even on a bad day he's doing one crucial thing which Luke Walsh, right now, is not - he's putting up a fight.
[/i
You can't carry a player on a rugby league pitch. I know we think we are helping Walsh out - but I'm not so sure. Certainly it can't be long before fierce competitors such as Roby, Walmsley, Tommy etc. (who'll literally open up a vein with a rusty razor for the club) get tired of leaving the field exhausted and battered whilst the supposed "brains" of the side is watching try-scorers stroll past him whilst playing at being a professional. It's just human nature.