I think the best 17 should be the side with the players that are best suited to defeating the opposition, this can vary from match to match.

In some games you may be playing against a side thats a bit lightweight so you could go for size and bully them across the park.
Another week and you may play a team like Wire or Leeds who have a decent pack but also plenty of pace and good field kickers. Therefore you need to incorporate more speed in your backline along with a strong kick game.

Furthermore we know this is Melis last season coming up and possibly also Wello's, therefore there has to be rotation at fullback and wing to manage the transition for 2014.

However I suspect the backline will probably look like this for most games

Wellens
Makinson
Turner
Meli
Foster

Meli and Turner give us good pace and power on the first tackle option following a kick return. This then can put the defending team on the backfoot, allowing Roby or whoever goes into dummy half to either scoot or bring the forwards into play on the next play.

We need to move Wello out in some of the lesser home games and for these i would look to playing Swift at Fullback. The perfect modern fullback is fast, elusive and has a good rugby brain. Swift we have already seen is fast and agile. He also is a standoff by trade so should have the footballing brain as well. The one thing we dont know is how he handles the positional and pressure side of fullback. This we need to find out by giving him matches against the likes of Salford and Widnes at home.

Josh Jones would not be out in the wilderness, but i think he was overused a bit last year, as for me it was noticeable that he faded a bit later on in the season. Its a real tough ask for a teenager to play nearly 20 games against men. So this year i would look to possibly bring him in for 10- 15 games. Possibly interchanging with Meli from the bench. Josh is actually an ideal bench sub as he can cover second row and standoff as well. Who knows maybe Josh will also be seen at loose forward in the future.

Wheeler. Got all the talent, but he really needs to stay clear of injury, otherwise i think Saints will waive the white flag with him. Defo got the talent to start in the centres or halves, but can you afford to risk it, knowing there is a good chance he will get an injury. Think he will get 10 or so games next season, but would like him to play a full injury free season so we could see if he can make that step to star player status.

The halves is another toughy. Basically we can go for Lomax, Gaskell, Wheeler and Hohoia.
I think Lomax is a bang on certainty. I'd be tempted to pair him with Wheeler.
What of Gaskell and Hohoia. I think Lance could be used as interchange hooker and perhaps in some games will be used as starting hooker with Roby getting a breather or being played at Loose forward.
Gaskell. I can see Brown using him in some games in a quasi loose forward role, similar to that in which he had Kevin Brown operating.
What is sure is i think he will be given more game time than this year, as he needs to be brought on.

I dont think its worth talking about the pack as they will get rotated to help them get over knocks and also stay fresh.
One things for sure the pack will be big and mobile and have plenty of depth.

Agreed, but Meli can't do this returning from centre... We have no kick return from Wello so the wingers need to shoulder this burden instead. With Wellens, Makinson and Foster carting the kick returns up you might as well just give us a 2nd tackle on our 10 every set of six... Meli must play on the wing preferably with Gardner on the other side to give us the momentum you speak of - the above 3/4 line would be every opposition kicking game's dream.



No way - Lomax and Gaskell are way too similar to work as a partnership and would be little better than Hohaia/Lomax has been. If one plays in the halves then the other must place centre or fullback. Gaskell is unfortonately the only player we have at the moment with the skillset to create a balanced half back partnership with Lomax or Wheeler, even though he's not ready yet to assume the mantle of our primary organiser and creator (and may never be). I think Wheeler is the more natural half and could take more of the load off Gaskell while he's learning the trade so that would be the pairing to go for if Wheeler gets his head in the game next year. I reckon we'll be seeing a Lomax/Gaskell partnership with Wheeler intemittently in the centres however.

That why I've picked Turner and Gardner on the wings.
Meli in the centre is perfect for me, all of his strengths, none of his weaknesses - he's one of the most dangerous 3/4s in the league and I'd rather have him in one, getting the ball and creating chances for us.
Turner has been questioned as to his defensive positioning in the centre channel and tackling capababilities, so starting him on the wing will tone any weakness down, whilst still giving us a big athletic lad on the wing to finish and return kicks.
Garner's kick returning when he was fit last year was awesome. Whether he could sustain it for a season is a question mark, I guess, but worth a start for this reason. He's pretty good under kicks, too, when in [ithe zone[/i.

I will be very surprised if Wello isnt at 1 all year. at some point we have to try someone else there be it Makinson, lomax, Ashe? as the regular season means nothing anyway we might as well try different people there

I agree that having a strong kick return from Wingers is a useful bonus. However i think Saints in recent years have become obsessed with it to the detriment of having a balanced backline. As a result we have had little or no flair and pace outwide.
I also think that people can become blind to thinking that a kick return starts and finishes with the fullback or wings on the immediate play in which they receive the ball. In reality the kick return encompasses the entire set of 6 tackles and includes the kick on the final tackle.

Foster and Makinson dont possess the power to come infield and make a rampaging run on the first tackle like Meli and Gardner, however this does not mean they cannot make yards on the kick return. Its more of a case that when they come into tackle contact they are easily put to ground. The key then is what happens on the next play. With Shenton and Wheeler at centre as per the last couple of years, Saints had to resort to using forwards as neither of those two players possessed any physical presence to undertake a damaging dummy half run following the kick return by Makinson or Foster.
Move forward to next season however, and Jordan Turner is a strong fast bloke who can support the forwards workload going forward. Meli or Josh Jones also possess the physical presence to actually get on top of a defending side and get the defenders on the backfoot from the centre positions.
Hence i feel that the combination of initial kick return followed by next tackle play presents the opportunity to make more metres in return than has been the case in recent years.

Its also wrong to state Wello doesnt possess kick return, he does. The issue is that he doesnt present an attacking threat from deep due to his lack of pace. Stick with Gardner and Meli out wide on the wings and all three backs have no threat from distance. Go with Foster and Makinson however and they do present options in that they can both go 60 to 70 metres if the opportunity presents itself.

One other thing worth considering is that its not beyond the realms of possibility that the coach would for example play Turner at Centre but have him dropping back on the fifth tackle to cover kick returns.

Nathan Brown rates Josh Jones very highly, I'm certain he will feature.

Oh he will definitely feature. However i dont know if he will get as much exposure as this year. I'm worried about second season syndrome.

I personally think Nathan Brown will be very excited to work with the Saints players, as he has far more to work with than that at Huddersfield.

We should therefore see what he is truly made of on the coaching front.

Not nessasarily a starting 17, but a side I would like to see for a match or 2 this year.

Lomax
Turner
Meli
Jones
Makinson
Gaskell
Lance
Perry
Roby
TP
Laffranchi
Manu
Wilkin

Sia
Warmsley
LMS
Wellens

( with wellens possibly coming in to do some work at loose or SR, he's played for years at FB, I'd like to see him in another role to see how he goes. People say he is FB or nothing, but how do we know unless we give him a run out there)

It's a big enough pack to take some experiementation and Wellens I would suggest could offer more in attack than Flannery ever did in the years he was placed there.
Wellens has played centre for GB and was perfectly fine if not outstanding there, so I think he could be more versitle than people give him credit for.

Also having a back on the bench who can pack down, gives us the flexibility that Royce wanted, without the 80mins of a player doing nothing.

We used to have a jack of all trades in Phil Vivers if I remember correctly, who could basically cover any position apart from prop. I have nothing against a back on the bench so long as they are used in the pack to share the load if they are not needed in the backs.

An injury to anyother back position and Wellens drops into centre/ FB and others can move too during the match. Lomax to half or wing, meli to wing etc etc.

All we definitely know is that he doesn't see Hohaia as a half-back in any shape or form, he said as much live on the BBC last year. Probably leaves him on the bench covering at 9 but I can see him getting some starts at fullback. He brings a different threat than Wellens in that you would expect him to get the ball to the outside backs more often. Wellens has scored a lot of tries but I think it's fair to say he butchered a fair few too with his link distribution or lack thereof. Hohaia is guilty of this too but would get a bit more room wider out and I could see our left edge especially getting a lot more tries if we tried this.

No problems in the forwards were we have quality and depth. Lomax 6 and Gaskell 7 would be my starting combo, with Wheeler covering if he were ever able to. Choices too in the backline but not much by way of quality. I like Makinson and Jones but the rest have plenty to prove, hopefully there will be decent competition for places between the remainder.

Wellens
Makinson
Turner
Jones
Gardner/Meli/Foster
Lomax
Gaskell
Perry
Roby
Puletua
Manu
Laffranchi
Wilkin

Hohaia
Soliola
Clough
LMS

A back 3 of Wellens, Gardner and Meli was proven to be not good enough for us to win anything in 2007, and 2008, and 2009. Why will it be good enough in 2013?

As a combination they are too slow and the wingers are mistake ridden, often costing us as many points as they get us. I see the positives with Meli and a move to centre would, IMO allow us his positives and rid of us of his glaring weakness, catching a high ball.

Gardner is no better at 30 than either Makinson or Foster, and they bring us speed or points via kicking. At least their weaknesses can be attributed to inexperience and can hopefully be ironed out of their game. After 10 years, I've given up hope that Gardner will do the same.

Both are beyond reserve rugby and should be in the first team, we should have got rid if Gardner 2 years ago instead of giving him a new contract.

Dont know the rationale behind some people suggesting playing Turner on the wing.

The guy has only played wing once in his entire professional career and that was in 2007 when he was 17 years old and making only his third appearance.

Other than that he has been at centre for 78 games, standoff 10 games, Loose forward 3 games, and fullback 1 game.
He has played from the bench 14 times. Mostly when a kid at Salford.

At centre he has scored 34 trys in those 78 appearances.

Because it's not a starting 17 for a GF, but more an experiemental 17 which should still be capable against struggling sides and will give oppertunities to some players to try new slots.

Probably because he is very poor defensively at centre and would be less of a liability there?

He isnt very poor defensively.

His tackle completion rate is 90.2%
His centre partner Kirk Yeaman who is supposed to be strong defensively has a completion rate of 83%

That tells me the proplem isnt Turner but actually Hulls defensive structure as a whole.
This is backed up by the overall team stats
As a team Saints finished the Season with an overall tackle completion rate of 94.75%, the best in the entire league. Hulls team average was 92.75%

It also must be noted that Shenton who is supposed to be a top line defensive centre had a completion rate of 92% playing in a far superior team than Hull.

I dont expect Turner to be James Roby in the defensive stakes, but i do expect him to be a competent if not exceptional defender.

You would think from the comments of some Saints fans that Turner is a turnstyle.

The same rationale that has some on here ( including you if memory serves ) that have been asking for Jonny Lomax to play fullback when he has only played th position once in his life ( His first team debut at Wakefield ).

Read what the Hull fans think about him, ask them if they rate him defensively. Missed tackle stats include only tackles where the player actually attempts a tackle don't they? If a player is stepped or walked past and doesn't lay a finger on them, it doesn't count at all. It's one of the reasons Wello's stats don't look so bad, he's usually 12 feet away from being able to 'miss' a tackle.

My main rationale is that I want my to be Meli and Jones.

Testimony of the hull fans says he's a poor defender. I think they tend to focus more ont he positioning aspect of it than the physical tackling.

I rate Jones and think he could really kick on next year in a team that will (hopefully) look like its coached better than last.

I rate Meli as a very good centre, in fact I rate him as a good player anywhere, but any weaknesses he has are aplified by the wing spot.

Turner is fast and athletic and an exciting player with ball in hand, so I want him on the pitch. I have chosen him on the wing so he can use his pace in attack and strength coming out of our own half. Assuming he can catch, his athletisism should see him capable under the high ball, even when being attacked by big wingers.

I have in the past championed Lomax at Fullback, and he has played there more than once in the first team. I think its 4 times. However more importantly he played quite a bit in the reserves at Fullback, along with Hooker i might also add. Though i dont personally want Jonny to go hooker as i think one of his great strengths is support play, which is nullified when going into the hooking position.

The other aspect of championing Jonny as a potential fullback is the confidence he showed playing on the wing.
The fact he is a half by trade also is a plus point in the modern game as the fullback today is a key part of a sides creative attack.

Personally though on the limited viewing i have seen, i think Swift may be the man for the job due to his exceptional pace and agility, not too mention nerves of steel he has so far shown taking bombs. However i have also seen Gaskell play full back in the reserves and he is somewhat potent in that position as well.
Another option at Fullback is Jamie Foster. He played quite a bit in the reserves there. Thats of course discounting Ashe who is another fine player we have with pace.

And that's the point isn't it we had potential to try out in that slot. Say the 40 - nil game against Wakey at home, but because we played Wellens week in and week out 12 months has gone and we are none the wiser. Wire where resting Hodgson, it does not mean they are not going to pick him for the GF and CC final, but at least they have tried and tested the future at FB. I understand the reasons for it, I understand it got us out of a hole, but I still think at some point we could have said, we are out the hole, lets have a look around.

If the same was to happen this year then we should have sold some of these youngster to at least get some cash rather than letting them walk for free at the end of the year.

He has only started as fullback once. You are right that he has played there another few times but only for part games to cover injuries/reshuffles.

I think he probably does have many attributes that would make him a good fullback. However, I believe his elusive running style is best utilized in the halves and would be wasted at fullback. The only thing Lomax is missing at halfback is an good organizing halfback partner. Not all halfbacks have to be fantastic organizers with a good kicking game. I personally think his best position is standoff with a Danny Brough type scrum half inside him.

Quote ="Top Saint"He has only started as fullback once. You are right that he has played there another few times but only for part games to cover injuries/reshuffles. I think he probably does have many attributes that would make him a good fullback. However, I believe his elusive running style is best utilized in the halves and would be wasted at fullback. The only thing Lomax is missing at halfback is an good organizing halfback partner. Not all halfbacks have to be fantastic organizers with a good kicking game. I personally think his best position is standoff with a Danny Brough type scrum half inside him.'" I'm perhaps being pedantic, however the figure of playing 4 times at fullback is backed up by the Rugby League project website. The stats there are compiled by legendary Saints fan Billy Bates. www.rugbyleagueproject.org/match ... 0tLS0tLS0t

Quote ="Top Saint"He has only started as fullback once. You are right that he has played there another few times but only for part games to cover injuries/reshuffles. I think he probably does have many attributes that would make him a good fullback. However, I believe his elusive running style is best utilized in the halves and would be wasted at fullback. The only thing Lomax is missing at halfback is an good organizing halfback partner. Not all halfbacks have to be fantastic organizers with a good kicking game. I personally think his best position is standoff with a Danny Brough type scrum half inside him.'" I'm perhaps being pedantic, however the figure of playing 4 times at fullback is backed up by the Rugby League project website. The stats there are compiled by legendary Saints fan Billy Bates. www.rugbyleagueproject.org/match ... 0tLS0tLS0t

Quote ="The Chair Maker"I'm perhaps being pedantic, however the figure of playing 4 times at fullback is backed up by the Rugby League project website. The stats there are compiled by legendary Saints fan Billy Bates. www.rugbyleagueproject.org/match ... 0tLS0tLS0t'" My apologies. My memory isn't what it used to be ( it wasn't that good to start with ).

Quote ="The Chair Maker"I'm perhaps being pedantic, however the figure of playing 4 times at fullback is backed up by the Rugby League project website. The stats there are compiled by legendary Saints fan Billy Bates. www.rugbyleagueproject.org/match ... 0tLS0tLS0t'" My apologies. My memory isn't what it used to be ( it wasn't that good to start with ).

="Billinge_Lump"

We won WCC, Challenge Cup & League Leaders Shield in 2007, and then Challenge Cup & League Leaders Shield in 2008...would hardly call that winning nothing

="Billinge_Lump"

Gardner was playing very well for us before his injury in 2011 and was imo our best winger in 2012 when he was fit. He is a strong runner of the ball, generally safe and his defence is pretty solid. Scores a lot of tries from kicks (when we have a half decent kicker) - my only fear around Ade would be his fitness as he has missed large parts of last 2 years through injury.

As for starting 17, I would go with:
Wellens
Gardner/Makinson
Turner
Jones
Meli
Gaskell
Lomax
Perry
Roby
Laffranchi
Sia
Manu
Wilkin

TP
Clough/Flanagan
LMS
Hohaia

Nah. Makinson was our best winger in 2012. The only advantage over Makinson that Gardner has is his kick returns. In all other respects he's not as good as Makinson.

I'd disagree with him being generally safe, bar 2006, he's never been generally safe.