So you never watched Allan Langer or Andrew Johns or Sean Long or Ben Hornby or Chris Sandow? Precisely WHAT do you think those guys are/were shouting about in the time immediately between the ref shouting "hold" and the ptb?

Jesting aside, Mathers for all his flaws was a major contributor in our improved defence, I think it's preferential to have your FB calling the shots if you're relying on one guy, but at Wire as most people know Briers does most of the shouting and organising at 6 with a defensive position at centre.
Briers was always a shouter but I'm sure he learned an awful lot from Alfie, I think though it's ideal to have 2, one in the line and the FB to iron out the gaps from behind.

That's good. But I didn't mention Lomax's individual defence.



I guess that's your theory. But Wellens' abilities to organise the defence aren't conditional upon his fitness/speed/age. Unless he had laryngitis and [icouldn't speak[/i the team would have received the same level of instruction they did during trophy-winning seasons (perhaps better given his greater experience).



That's good. But ...

I think you're mistaken. The halves make no contribution to the defensive pattern in the modern game.

I didn't say they had no contribution, it is each and every plays responsibility to ensure the defensive line is set. However, you was saying it was mainly Lomax's role which is nonsense.

If anything the Full Back has a far greater responsibility than the scrum half so aim your suggestions at Paul Wellens, after all he's in the optimum position to see everything going on.

Yes Lomax has a responsibility to ensure the line around him is set, but it's not his responsibility to set the entire line. Each individual player must be held accountable for being able to know where they need to be. The scrum half defends in wider channels than they used to, they physically can't organise the entire line, it's impossible doing that from the centre position.

And I know East Hull is a bit rough, but these aren't 'military strategists' they are Rugby League players.

Conceding 36 points against a team without recognisd halfbacks should probably ring a few alarm bells.

Correct
Royce has got his work cut out with his defence in the next 6 games: I would only be confident against Bradford at this stage.
Catalan
Huddesfield
Hull
Bulls
Leeds
Wire

You said:



You still haven't explained why Langer, Johns, Sandow, Hornby etc. are often described as (outstanding) organisers of the defence in the NRL. If your theory is true and the burden is shared equally then why is it these players are singled out with the label whilst centres, wingers, stand-offs are not.



The fullback has an excellent view, but only in one plane of direction. Just like the fans stuck behind the sticks he has zero perception perpendicular to that plane. Which is why one player (usually the scrum half - but not always) must assume that role.



Who said anything about organising the ENTIRE defence? I can't understand why you think it's impossible for a player to be anything other than responsible for [ihis part[/i of the defence or [iall[/i of it. There's nothing whatsoever in between.

Maybe they are excellent organisers of the defence around them, they're still not responsible for the other side of the field.

Because you said it is Lomax's fault we were conceding tries due to his lack of organisation. Lomax defends on the right whilst a lot of points are scored down our left through Meli and Foster's wing. That can't possibly be Lomax's job to organise them, even someone with the loudest of voices can't organise the other side of the field with the crowd noise.

The Full Back's job is to shout the retreating defenders from the tackle into holes and plug the gaps. Whether he can only see perpendicular to the plane is irrelevant because the defense sets a line on the referee across the plane. The issue in defensive lines isn't in setting it straight, professional clubs will get this right with ease, the issue is leaving gaps. Nobody is in a better position than the full back to see that. What are you defining the plane as? The defensive line or the Full Back's line of sight?

With regards to the entire defence, you said it was Lomax's fault we're conceding so many points. When a lot of our points are conceded down the left channel how could that possibly be his fault when eh defends on the right? Have you ever tried to organise a defence when you can barely hear yourself think? It's not easy and would be impossible to give directions to the other side of the field.

I see no reason to chance my prediction, given the outcome at Hull KR. Same reason I saw no reason to change my prediction that Warrington would be the team to beat in 2012 , after their draw to Hull FC.

I still reckon we'll beat them all, bar wire (that's a 50/50 call for mine.)

Went to the game on Sunday and just watched the game back on hullkr.tv

Needless to say neither side's defence was great but it made for a superb game of Rugby League.

I've read some posts on here about your pack not playing well but the harsh reality is (whether you and the RL media like it or not), is that your pack come to play but they got totally battered into submission not only by our overseas forwards like Paea, Clinton & Mika but also our young homegrown forwards Taylor, Cox & Watts who totally dominated your pack. Credit to Soliola though, he was keen all match though the likes of Wilkin proved he's nothing but a flat-track bully who goes missing when the going gets tough.

Also our make-shift halves combo of Hall and Murrell seemed to have more orthadox half-back traits than your first choice halves in Lomax & O'hiah. I think Lomax is a great elusive player - similar to Burrows but Burrows has had the luxury of Sinfield playing the "General" role for him where as your team is soley reliant on James Roby for all direction on the park. Your signing of O'Hiah is totally baffling to me because he has similarities to some of your other players.

Anyway, as far as the match went, losing Withers in the middle of the second-half was a blow but young Josh Hodgson took the lead and your middle guys really struggled to handle him until he rolled his ankle and went off which meant further re-jigging after losing both our hookers. Needless to say I'm certain we would have gone on to win by 6/12 points had we had still one of our hookers on the pitch but that's Rugby League.

I must say that I think that although quite a few of your players are totally overrated in an individual context, you still manage to deliver as a team on the back of exceptional dummy-half bursts from James Roby who IMO is now the best hooker in the world. However the one player who does excite me is Wheeler and I think he will eventually go on to represent England if he continues to develop.

I have to say though the amount of forward passes your team throw in games is absolutely shocking - I counted 5 of your 7 tries watching the match back which were scored through forward passes. Don't get me wrong, every team throws a few in a game but Sunday's match was laughable.

Anyway, all in all a great game of Rugby League and I look forward to the return fixture where I certain that as long as we don't sustain injuries during the game, then we'll come back with the 2 points.

Utter nonsense. One bad game doesnt prove anything, never mind that an international player is 'nothing but a flat track bully who goes missing when the going gets tough'. Wilkin would walk into your team and be by far and away your best player. Also who are all these over rated players? And who are all the players that are similar to hohaia. I can think of only 1 which is lomax.

Today's top tip
How to disguise your rampant bias: Simply conclude your one-eyed diatribe on the weekend's match with a token comment about what a good game of rugby league it was.

Apart for the fact that your pack is not as strong as ours.


Deluded. Ben Galea made it into the NRL dream team in 2009 and was in similar form last year - all this playing behind a beaten front-row on a regular basis - he changed the momentum of games from the back-row. When similar situations happen to Wilkin i.e. like last Sunday when you pack was getting pummelled, he went missing.

Wilkin was in the opta team of the week, hope that helps.

Today's top tip.
How to avoid getting into debate specific points about the fact a full-strength St Helens side was lucky to scrape a point against an injury ravaged Hull KR side missing 5/6 of it's [ukey[/u pivotal players.

Helps what? helped you from failing to beat an injury ravaged Hull KR side with your best team on the park?

Not that a great "help" was he?

Hope that helps.

Hope that helps you realise you're talking rubbish about Wilkin. Get over the fact that you didn't win and move on, it doesn't matter anymore.

I have got over it.

I posted some opinions with detailed reasons yet your fans seem to have delusions of grandeur and that anyone who doesn't think your team is the best team in the world is wrong instead of engaging in debate.

Never hear of an 'off day'?

At the end of the season we'll still be in the top 3 and reaching finals whereas you'll be in middle table mediocrity struggling to reach the play offs so I couldn't care less.

Sorry if I've offended you. I was only being playful. To engage in debate, I struggle to see how a side whose forwards have been as completely dominated as you suggest throughout a match could score seven tries in that match.

Considering you say that your pack totally dominated ours, and he was in that pack, then yes, he was a help.

Can we leave this thread now, KR was last week the future is Catalan.