The problem at the club is that we can,t speed up the development process of our young promising players quick enough especially in the important pivotal positions. Wello is still our best all round full back and offers experience, direction, he reads the game well for the next defensive/offence plays.
We could throw Swift or Makinson in at full back but that would mean of the main pivotable positions 1,6,7,9,13 we only have Roby with the necessary skillset to consistently trouble the opposition.
Historically when our full back loses pace they usually spend the latter years in the pack, times have changed I suppose.

Apparently, eh? So, in other words, you made it up.

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Wellens does everything that you would expect of a fullback with 10 years experience.
His positional sense is probably his best attribute, this makes his lack of blistering pace less of a problem than it would be.
His one on one tackling is as good as anyones in an exposed position and better than most.
His ability to join the line at just the right time is evident by the number of trys and assists he has this season
His experience to guide his team round the park
His kick returns are generally sound and make ground, his evasive qualities keep him away from the opposition more times than he gets tackled easily - this gives the team time to regroup.
He also is very sound under the kick - dont be-little that skill as players have been crucified in this team for not being.

What I can tell you is that Makinson, Swift or even Gaskell or Lomax have none of those attributes - could some learn them? probably, would that happen by placing them in the first team at fullback? it would be far more likely that the number of errors they would make at that level would criple them confidence wise - so the way they would learn is A team rugby, the coaching staff do seem to be trying different options at fullback in the A team - it doesnt look like they have found anyone ready to slot into that position yet.
Your thoughts of putting anyone there ahead of Wellens is based on a guess that it might work. Thank God that the coaching staff have a better process to find out if they can play there first. But the obvious point is that people playing regular first team will not get this chance unless you decide to leave them out of first team rugby to learn a different position - and thats not a luxury we can afford at the moment.
As for Hohaia - I assume you did see his performance in the full back role at the beggining of the season - what did you see there that could possibly make him the man for the job?

Not entirely. I have watched Wello in the latter part of this season and he does the same thing pretty much every game: he gets the ball (from whoever passes it to him) runs down the left channel and keeps trying to score until he does. He very rarely passes it to his centre, even when a try looks more likely by doing so. The ball more often than not dies with Wello in our 20, when he is involved. He has scored as many tries as he has in part because he doesn't pass within our 20. If he passed more often then IMO he would score fewer but others would score more.

It was under Royce that Wello developed the attacking side to his game. That isn't me making stuff up; Wello himself said in an interview that Royce had asked him to play as a third halfback to help out what were then two very raw actual halfbacks in Gaskell and Lomax. It worked a treat under Royce because Wello was less inclined to hold on to the ball and varied when and where he chimed in. But this season he is as predictable as the weather and that has made him frustrating to watch and IMO less effective in attack.

Playing as an attacking fullback isn't his natural style. He is a defensive fullback and it is in his defence where all his attributes lie. I also don't think he is a good captain but that is because he complains so much without the accompanying firing up of his team mates that Jammer used to bring to the party (and that balanced up HIS propensity to complain).


Wello will not have been as able a fullback when he started as he is now. Young players, like Wello himself once was, only learn their trade by playing once they have mastered the basic skills. Makinson IMO has shown good signs of game awareness but if he isn't played at fullback he will never learn how to become a better fullback. I can't comment on Swift or Gaskell at fullback because I've not seen either play there. I've only seen Lomax play there once I think and that was ages ago.


Hohaia is a world cup winning fullback. I think to question his ability there is foolish. He succeeded there against Australia, which is more than Wello has ever done.

He doesnt only run down one channel - he runs down the left mainly due to the natural ability of players to pass to the left - however he has also been very effective at running down the right channel, taking inside balls etc. he has 10 assists (prior to Friday) which is the 3rd highest in the team
Does he get it right every time? No
Does he get it right more often than he doesnt? with 20 tries and 10 assists I would say yes


I dont think you are making stuff up and Royce may have asked him to ammend his style - but he has been scoring try's concistently since 2005 and one of his worst returns for try's was last year with 14 so his old style was working for him also. Perhaps the change in style was more ed around helping young players rather than improving his own play? just a thought


I dont agree with the use of the word all when describing his sum of attributes. You are right that he is a natural defensive fullback - but he has been scoring as many tries as most full backs since the turn of the century - and most years far more than you would expect from a fullback (these are off course the years before attack seems to be the number one priority looked for in a fullback rather than defence)


I agree that as a captain he doesnt stand up against previous captains we have had


We are talking different era's but what I do know is that Wellens's early appearances at full back would have earned him a 20 page topic on here looking for an alternative and comparing him unfavourably to every full back previously to play for Saints - he was that bad, his game at Gateshead was atrocious - nowadays he would have been immediatly dropped - different era's - different needs


Dont think that at any time I am suggesting that Hohaia is a bad player - there are [uno[/u players who are playing professional rugby league who are bad players. But once you turn professional the measure you have to come up against is much higher. Some blow that measure away and some fall far short of it. Some have a limited talent and make the most of it and some just get plain lucky. I definately think that Hohaia stands in the last category - he works hard at getting the most out of what he has but has also managed to drop lucky with some of his selections. There are plenty of players out there who have medals because of the side they were in - I dont use that as a yard stick to judge how good they are, I prefer to look how they play currently - and for this year Lance Hohaia is not playing well in any position he is put in.

I think Wello has had a mixed season. That positional sense that he is well known for did seam to have slipped in some games. There were years ( or so it seamed) when a kick in the air never hit the ground at Saints. Hence Wellens Bomb disposal flag.

This year there have been a few occasions where it has been more noticable that balls kicked up for the FB have been left to bounce rather than been taken on the full. Also there have been occasions where breaks have gone through the Saints line and the player going through has just ghosted past Wellens, the worst being Hock. A FB does not have to be fast to get in the face of a player coming forwards, if Hock could burn Wellens off on the angle, then it did get me worrying.

A season is a long time in RL though and Wellens has been having some decent games too. As I said I thought he did alot right yesterday and saying he just runs down the left does not justify the input into the game yesterday. He was MOM for me yesterday.

But the big thing for me is the future, when Wellens came in it was to replace patch who also was becoming pedestrain in defence on high kicks and chasing down a man going through a broken line. We blooded Wellens and the FB slot at Saints was solid for a decade.

At the moment we seam to be denying possible replacements the same oppertunity we gave wellens and so we could be letting future FB's pass us by and the chance to develop their skills in that role too. I would not say every game but some games I would have liked to see possible future FB's given the oppertunity to develop that role. Who better to learn the game from than one of the best FB's in SL.

My fear is we play Wellens until it's way beyond him then throw in candidate after candidate with no Wellens to Fallback on or learn from. The difficulty is if Wellens does not play FB, to give another guy a chance to get that first grade experience, then where do we play him??

2nd Row/LF?
Centre?
Bench?

I don't think he is a one trick pony and he could play another role. My hope is that Brown likes to be a tinker man and he will move Wellens about a bit to see where else he may contribute and who else maybe the long term replacement at FB.

I can understand Rush and Cunningham not doing this as they have nothing to gain with experimenting with a side that is not theirs to mess with.

That's a good point. Wello isn't getting the criticism from other people he was a couple of years ago when he dropping every bomb that went his way, simply because he's now not even reaching them. It's the same with tries, in the good old days at KR, he have made try saving tackles almost every game and certainly every big game. Now a Wellens tackle is a rare occurance, again because he doesn't get there anymore.

I would LOVE someone to do an analysis of the tries we've conceded this season and where Wello was when it happened. He almost always arrives at the scene as the try scorer is getting up, and takes it out on the referee. The mindless Saints fans then don't see him miss a tackle, so don't put a black mark in his book.

For people who reckon Wellens is NOT an attacking full back:

Wellens this season:
Is the clubs highest try scorer
Is the clubs highest for tackle busts.
Is in second place to Meli for clean breaks.

And for consistency he has scored 210 career tries as well.

Have you compared those stats to other fullbacks in superleague?

He is bound to be our highest try scorer. He never passes out within the 20 until he scores one himself. On one occasion I counted three of his failed attempts to cross the line in one match when had he passed the ball instead of trying for the line himself we would likely have scored. He scored eventually but meanwhile potentially deprived the team of three tries. He does this in each match, although not necessarily to the same degree. It drives me nuts sometimes when I'm watching because he is putting the result at risk.

Yes, by comparison on attributes he is the 4th best full back in super league behind Tomkins - Hardaker - Eden, very close to 3rd place Eden.

Failed attempts you could say that for quite a few players, but as rightly pointed out by other posters he has taken on extra responsibility due to our half backs deficiency. I think people are clutching at straws to try and justify his de selection when in reality at the moment he is still the best option at full back, sooner or later if it be Makinson or Swift for No 1, it will be done at risk which we can ill afford until the cavalry arrives.

There was a 2nd part to that post of mine.

That would be Eden who is in his debut year? Hardaker too (at fullback anyway).




Really? I seem to remember Makinson did fine at fullback in the Grand Final. In fact, we were winning while he was playing there. I rather think you underestimate Makinson.

I think we are being left behind.

I watch when we do our shift play (you know, the only one we have), and most times, Wello has no option but to keep hold. Lomas and Hohoia don't take the ball to the line (Leuluia, Finch and Tomkins have this down to a fine art), so we are easy to read. The edge defence can move up, knowing who they marking - meaning should Wello pass, the centre would get clobbered, or even worse intercepted. When he has time and space, he does pass, and create tries.

I'm not saying he makes the right decision all of the time, but a lot of the time, keeping hold is his ONLY option. For me, Lomax is far, far worse at decision making - he does his little kick step and takes the line on when a pass out wide would be a better option.

That's what it comes down to for me. I love Wellens the player. I rate his commitment to our cause to be the most I've seen since I've been watching the game. He is capable of playing at this level. However we are competing at a level which highlights his attacking weaknesses in a time when the full back position needs faster, more agile input from its occupant. Is it a coincidence that the three teams who have consistently caused us problems over the past three years (the time period during which this issue has become more prominent) all have had full backs faster than ours i.e. Pies, Wire, Leeds.

The role of the full back has changed and Wellens has certainly developed his game over the years. He can play the role well but he is not improving each year and he certainly isn't getting quicker or more mobile. Most people would say that, at best, he's stayed the same on those two attributes for about these past three years.

That's a key point for those of arguing for a faster option. Look at Wellens' return and then imagine how many more we could have with a speedier/more agile option. Despite playing very well on Friday there were more than a couple of occasions that Wellens was getting the ball too far away from the defensive line for his level of speed. It means that when he hits the defensive line they've had that extra half second or so to move across thereby negating any advantage our dummy runners/misdirection moves make closer to the middle. Tomkins, Hodgson and even Webb don't afford the same opportunity for defenders.

Nobody is saying Wellens can't produce. What we are saying is that a faster player would be more beneficial to the overall pattern of our attacking play.



This used to be the best aspect of Wellens' play for me. Certainly he was the best returning full back in the league for a few years because he would often break the first tackle. He does this a lot less now and although I agree with your view that he gives us time to regroup, I also think his slower speed i.e. retrieving the ball, turning, returning, means that we lose out either via a lesser return or poorer position i.e. any kick that goes past him is horrible for us.

Being a stats-man, I thought'd I'd have a look at this. To give it a bit of context, you need to have a look at the number of carries Wellens makes, he has carried the ball 383 times, for 2312 metres (6m per carry), the following have a better m/carry; Meli 9.2, Solioa 6.9, Makinson 7.6, Laffranchi 7.4, Jones 7.1, Flannery 6.1, Shenton 6.6, Swift 8.7, Dixo, 7.4, Wheeler 7.3, Puletua 8.2, Flanagan 6.2, Clough 8, Perry 7. When you think Wello generally has 10m or so without any defender in front of him. His tries per carry is pretty comparable to the rest of the squad also.

If you just look at the metres per carry for the rest of the league, Hardaker 7.7, Eden 8, Tomkins 7.4, Mathers 5.8, Ratchford 8.3, Hodgson 6.5, S Briscoe 5.8, T Briscoe 8.6

McLennan - You make some interesting observations - most of which I have no issues with at all - my issue at this time is the way that some people want to rip the side apart just to replace Wellens at fullback.

Is his star on the wane - absolutely. Do we have anyone who is accomplished enough to replace him for the end of this season - the answer to that is no, we have some prospects but right now playing them at fullback would reduce the effectiveness of the team as a whole.

I think it was time about 12 months ago to find a replacement for Wellens - but the method to do that wasnt to remove him from the team, but more about getting his replacement up to speed so any transition is smooth. So Wellens works with him on the parts that only he can teach, but working with the coaches and the half backs to enable the team to also change their style.

Since we have changed coaches in that time and Rush has had to stabalise rather than change things I dont know if that transition was ever on the table.
What I do know is that he is still good enough to play fullback and better than most, if we are going to replace him IMO it will be done one of two ways. We identify his successor and work on the transition over the next 12 months or Wellens gets injured and we happen across a player who can fill that role and then work on the finer points.
Somebody mentioned the quality of the ball to him - usually from the halfbacks - do you think that your point about the defenders having more time to deal with his threat is down to the fact that certainly one halfback doesnt seem to take on the line? Speed would certainly help to negate this but so would a better halfback.

Something that has heaped frustration on this topic is that Wellens is very rarely injured and when he was at the beginning of the season (2 games, I think), we were not a team that was functioning very well at all. So, these arguments that we have, that player X,Y or Z would be more constructive are practically 100% conjecture.

If Wello had needed a 2-3 week break this season since Rush took over, then perhaps we'd have a bit more clarity on the subject.

I do vaugley remember that when Eastmond stepped into #1 last year we were, at least going forward, a much more dangerous proposition.

Sorry to help with the de-railing of this thread about a talented young player.

If you look at the changes in the structure of teams in the last 10 years Super league teams have always had at least 4 key playmakers. Ten years ago it was 6,7,9,13 now it is 1,6,7,9 with the loose forward more like a third prop. So essentially in attack you are swapping an extra runner on the fringes for an extra big man in the middle. The problem is we have adopted the modern 13 i.e. Clough/TP/Flanagan/Flannery but we have kept the old fashioned fullback. This leaves us with only 3 playmakers, one is a young lad (Lomax), the other is inexperienced in the position (Hohaia) which leaves our hooker (Roby). Thus the mantra "Stop Roby, Stop Saints"

So in the end we either need to replace Wellens or we need a playmaking loose forward. If you move Wellens to another position you are just moving the problem.

Ashe looked dangerous away at Hull last year as well. As you say it is hard to know without seeing the team without Wellens if it would be an improvement. But you have to break some eggs to make an omelette. We have to be willing to give some players a go in the position and be prepared for them to make mistakes to find the right man. I have no doubt that the Wello groupies would be screaming on here the second a bomb gets dropped by a replacement in the same way the Foster lovers cry every time a conversion is missed.

Its a point well made, I think that when Wilkin is playing that he tries to cover the traditional loose forward type of playmaker, but he now gets involved in so many tackles that he will not have the required energy in some parts of the game. It was mentioned that wellens was asked to try and become that extra play maker and he has the ball playing ability to be able to do that - but he doesnt seem to be covering it as well as the others who have natural pace.
It is without doubt a difficult position we find ourselves in - with no clear and easy way out. It certainly isnt helped when we have coach's who will not be running the team next year. I hope that Brown has been guiding the current staff to put processes in place to bear fruit next year.

Sometime I feel for Wello. In those situations, he's like the guy on star trek with the red uniform.
Our play is reletively predictable - Has been since potter.
Add to that slow distribution by Hohaia and slow movement off the ball by Wello and it culminates in an easy defend for our opposition. If they go one step further and agressively target him in defence, then it buggers us right up.

It's back to that old chestnut of Pete's. Recruitment and more to the point recruiting the right guys for the right places. I think we have recruited good players but not nessasarily for the right slots.

Its correct though in part, I just don,t think our priority is replacing Wellens at the moment. Our nightmare is our half backs, thats were it wants fixing first.

I remember at the beginning of the season quite a few on here were moaning, slagging off Wellens, Meli, and Wilkin when in actual fact they are the ones holding the team together to a certain extent at the moment.

This season I,ve mentioned we have had many false dawns, and this will continue when we come up against aggressive teams with decent half backs. Leave Wello were he is at the moment, we can,t afford to experiment with a full back. We,ve had nearly a full season to sort out our half backs and we are no further on than round 1.