Don't be daft. Our pack is fantastic - as good as any in the league in pure personnel terms easy. It's not their fault they were made to play one-up plodding rugby by a series of clueless coaches the last few years... Not many packs will get the better of us next year. All our potential problems are in the backs where we're relying on a lot of young players coming good all at once and could struggle badly if they don't - in the pack though we're sorted.

On its day our pack is good but I fancy wolves and Wigan to get the better of our pack if both play at full potential.

We are defo 100% a good prop short, possibly 2 short but it will more than hold its own most weeks.

The halves good be the problem again but Brown will give us better game plans and certainly more structure.

IMO for us to be a real force next year, we need top quality prop, halfback and centre.

Can't see you being a million miles away from a very good season tbh. You were very good against us (Leeds) last time and also for a game and a half against wire in the playoffs. Not sure of Brown's credentials when it comes to playoff rugby but I reckon you'll be good during the regular season and probably the CC and if he can get you to up it a notch in the playoffs, who knows?

Really? The Pies have lost Lima and Morley is nearly 40. Nothing to fear from either of their packs.

Remind me again of the age of the Saints pack!!!

I hope you didn't spend too much on me yesterday.

Gaz Hock totally destroyed us twice last year

I seem to remember the pies, leeds, warrington, cats and most suprisingly the hull packs getting the better of us last year.

:1mhh9lsp

OK, so you're not the brighest... No problem, we can work with that. Here's my original post again with the salient point subtly highlighted for your delectation:

"Northampton_Saint wrote:[i:1mhh9lspDon't be daft. Our pack is fantastic - as good as any in the league in pure personnel terms easy. :1mhh9lsp=#FF0000:1mhh9lsp[i[u:1mhh9lspIt's not their fault they were made to play one-up plodding rugby [size=150:1mhh9lspby a series of clueless coaches[/size:1mhh9lsp the last few years...[/u:1mhh9lsp[/i:1mhh9lsp:1mhh9lsp"

Is that better now or would you like me to provide you with diagrams?

Or maybe it's just that the Saints pack that you think is fantastic just isn't as good as you believe.

I do agree with the young player part though, it was something I warned about after witnessing it with Wigan around 2003/2004 / 2005.

Interesting you bring up the young player aspect as i think Wigans big weakness in this coming year will be a lack of experienced players.Only Hock O'loughlin and Richards have significant experience.
I'm surprised you havent brought that up in relation to Wigans team next season. Especially considering you will be going into the campaign with an untried half back pairing which may take some time to gell.
During the transitional period Saints have ensured they have maintained a significant level of experience, and this has helped us stay as an elite club. Wigan appear to be making the same mistakes as happened at the turn of the century, with regard to squad composition.

With regard to Saints pack it statistically outplayed over the season, every other pack.
Saints problem was not in making yards it was in doing something once we had made the yards.
Due to inexperienced coaches they went with a basic game plan which was still good enough to hand last years trophy winning teams Warrington and Leeds defeats, but ultimately wasnt enough in the really big games.
Saints weakness is a lack of pace and quality in the threequarters which means we are limited to scoring close range trys vombined with a misfiring half back pairing, which i think was more down to coaching than the respective players abilities. A lot in the 2013 season will depend on how our halves work under the brown coaching setup and if Jordan Turner can give us more strike power out wide than the rather powder puff Shenton, who was a flop at Saints.

Excellent post Chair.

Spot on.

Bang on - I maintain that in pure personnel terms we have the best pack in the league but that their effectiveness was sorely limited by our predictability due to the dire back situation we had last season. If we can get any productivity from the halves at all next year (and there's no reason to believe that we won't) then I reckon our pack will take some stopping.

I agree with Northampton Saint.

But will we improve in the halves this year? if not the same problems will occur again

I think the playmakers will be more effective this year. I have a feeling Gaskell and Lomax will be the half backs with either Wilkin or Hohaia acting as a 3rd when needed the same as most other teams use there full backs.

I reckon we will see Lance playing more game time at 9, with Roby playing an occaisonal role at 13. Especially with the new ruling of the extra player from an attacking scrum, the new ruling is tailor made for Roby who can create havoc in open space being the extra man. Hope our new coach has got them up to speed on the attacking option which was dinstinctly lacking last season.

I think our squad is good enough to win a major trophy next year, but I personally want to see us play a more expansive game than the last few years. Manu is certainly the sort of player who could play a more expansive style of rugby, and all though Turner looks a little bit dodgy defensively, he does look dangerous with ball in hand.

I don't think we'll do any better. We should be better in the forwards, but we weren't bad there anyway. It's the complete lack of quality in the backs that hampered us over recent seasons and will next season. No fullback, no strike centres, no organisation or spark of genius in the halves etc. Teams like Leeds and Warrington tick those boxes, so we've got to start fourth favourites, fourth still behind Wigan because they've got Tomkins.

I agree, we do have problems with our backs but I think Brown will add a structure to our attack which will help. The last two seasons weve had no tactics, no game plan, no structure, no ideas.

People keep saying how good our forwards are, I'm not so sure they as good as being made out. We lack a big yard making prop, Laffranchi and perry can't live with big aggressive forwards which witch are lack of kicking games means we struggle to get out our own half against the agressive packs.

IMO if Brown can put a good structure to our attack and we somehow delelop a kicking game, then I think we can challenge for the challenge cup and super league. I think wolves, saints, Wigan, Leeds in that order.

Playing devil's advocate, what reason do we have to believe that we can get any productivity from the halves?

Brown himself highlighted our halves as a major weakness and the most important area for strengthening and recruitment, but we are going in to the season with the same problems. Clearly, when he said that he had concerns, he had little faith in getting any great improvement from the current set up, so I see little reason to suspect that he will have produced any miracles. It also can't have been too inspiring for Lomax, Hohohaia or Gaskell to be told that they aren't up to the task by the new coach. I hope that I am proved wrong, but until a ball is kicked, none of us have any idea whether the halves issue will have been resolved, or even what line up we are likely to see. I don't think we will be a force until we sign a proven half back, a catalyst like Bobby Goulding was in the early Super League years.

Is the new ruling actually going to be used. I thought it was a trial for 4 friendlies only. It could be adopted by the RFL, but it's a bit late in the day with Championship teams and CC games due to start soon.

The kicking the ball dead rule could be adopted quickly as it would only require more accurate kicking.

The rule change on kicking the ball dead would seam to clash with the scrum ruling. As if you get penalised for kicking the ball dead from your own half, then surely teams who struggle to get out of their own half will start to angle kicks more for the touchline, so if they are too long they go into touch rather than dead in goal.

I'm not sure the RFL will adopt the rules in a World cup year, but it could make for some brainfarts come the world cup if they do and halves have to revert back to international rules.

Whilst i'm not saying they're going to dominate the SL, I think we have every reason to believe that we can get productivity from a half back pairing of Lomax and Gaskell - mainly because we have in the past. That combination, although inexperienced, showed the two lads could combine well a lot more consitently than Lomax and Hohaia.
Lomax had flashes last year, bt on the whole struggled at 7. The year before he won YPOTY from the same position.
Gaskell won plenty of plaudits for his performances in 2011 and had everyone in the world (bar Rush) crying for him to be brought back last year.

We have stuff in the locker that simply wasn't ustilised last year.

I'm not sure if we'll win a trophy, but I believe we are better off than last year and that the manner of our victories will be better.

I think Gaskell is a naturally gifted stans off, all his abilities are ideal for the stand off postion but to become a good halfback, you need to play week in and week out to develop a understanding with his halfback partner and also link between the forwards and backs.

I said at the time lomax and Gaskell was put together, that we need to stick with these two lads and accept we prob won't win anything for few years until they grow and develop.

Unfortunately some idiot called Royce decided to sign 28 year old fullback to play stand off. The same idiot got us in such a mess on the fieid with his crazy methods and team selection which left Mike Rush no option but to go with experince in order to give us a chance of plaff off rugby.

Because frankly how could they not be a vast improvement on last year? Gaskell will never be Wally Lewis, but even at his worst he brings a lot more options and creativity to the table than just immediately shuffling the ball one more down the line which is all we had from #6 last season for lawk's sake. And simply being freed of complete responsibility for moving the side around the pitch and providing all of our creative spark (tasks for which he is not suited) and being allowed some freedom to run at the defence a bit more instead (to which he is suited) will alone be enough to double Lomax' effectiveness. There is simply just no way we couldn't be a quantum leap better in the halves next year than this unless Brown is an incompetent idiot.

....and queue miscellaneous embittered Huddersfield fan pointing out that he is actually an incompetent idiot who never got them to the playoffs or Wembley, and will be playing TP and Manu in the halves....