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| Quote ="Judder Man"It wasn,t long ago that people on here wanted to get rid of Wellens and Wilkin, now suddenly after one game Wilkin is flavour of the month.
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He played well, ergo he gets praise and people want to keep him there next week to see if he can produce again. I think that's pretty clear.
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| Quote ="Judder Man"Its a fine balance isn't it, there would be some justification in dropping Wellens if he scored 10 tries in a season but let in 10 tries due to lack of mobility.
Lomax could score 20 tries but let in 10 tries due to poor positioning and reading the game, Makinson might even make less impact. Thats probably why the transition to a new full back is delayed because all our last 3 coaches have possibly seen it that way.
It wasn,t long ago that people on here wanted to get rid of Wellens and Wilkin, now suddenly after one game Wilkin is flavour of the month.
At the end of the day its up to our 3 young players with potential to show there worth and up there game no matter what circumstances are put in front of them.'"
Wilkin certainly isn't flavour of the month in my eye and I'd replace him if possible next year but that this current moment in time, he's the only player with any sort of leadership skills that can play in the halves.
Gaskell, lomax and hohaia isn't the solution at halfback as none can lead us about the field. Wilkin certainly isn't god enough but he's the best we got IMO .
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| Is this the end of Gaskell at Saints?
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| Quote ="Carlos Alberto"Is this the end of Gaskell at Saints?'"
Depends what happens next week. If we're beaten by Leeds and the halves play terribly, then they will be looking at it again.
Gaskell has been really harshly treated by Saints I feel. He was superb in our season at Widnes and got us to a Grand Final. At the end of that season Wellens should have been culled and Lomax moved and an experienced half back brought in.
Half backs need to be playing with a senior figure to develop. There are very few players that can come in as a youngster and organise and control a game and lead his team around the field. The likes of Johns and Goulding probably could, but the mortals need to learn from a more experienced hand.
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| I know they are similar positions but I would prefer Gaskell fixed at 7 and Wilkin at 6 if Wheeler is restricted to the occaisonal cameo appearance.
Wilkin can handle the close quarters stuff with his short passing game and composure, Gaskell is a runner and would be better coming onto second phase like Pryce use to operate.
The Wilkin and Wheeler pairing obviously isn,t a long term option but merely to give the opportunity for Lomax to find his true position.
As for getting an experienced half back its looking like a very rare commodity these days.
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| Quote ="Carlos Alberto"Is this the end of Gaskell at Saints?'"
This really winds me up, I hope your not fishing with this statement?
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| Quote ="Carlos Alberto"Is this the end of Gaskell at Saints?'"
I wouldn't be surprised if gaskell back next week but I also wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't play again this season
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| Plenty of interesting comments:
Always thought Wilkin had a place in the side as even when he isn't that creative or gives a penalty or skews a kick, he is usually doing the tackling for one of our lazy props. Props......perhaps another reason why our young halves aren't always devasting too.
Noted a comment about the three (Gaskell, lomax and Makinson) making over 150 appearances: Aren't most of Gaskells a twelve minute spell in a desperate and late attempt by the coach to salvage a match? Hardly representative of what he may produce inthe next ten years.
And all this clamour for Lomax to be Full Back: fine if you are one of those who sees a full back that likes to be more of an attacking than defensvie player....the current vogue. I still maintain that your full back is ostensibly a defensive player......just ask the Australian team in November 2013 when they've peppered Tomkins with high (and subsequently dropped) balls or run over him from eight yards out or grounded the ball about four yards to his left (or right) just in time for him to slide in with his knees....still, he'll come into the line two or three times and score a try.
All three discussed are of good quality and may well become of much better than that......and its interesting that us plumbers, firemen, accountants, school crossing patrols, IT bods, PPI salesmen and such, believe we are better suited to Rugby League than those who have much more experience at it.
Come On You Saints
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| Quote ="Judder Man"I know they are similar positions but I would prefer Gaskell fixed at 7 and Wilkin at 6 if Wheeler is restricted to the occaisonal cameo appearance.
Wilkin can handle the close quarters stuff with his short passing game and composure, Gaskell is a runner and would be better coming onto second phase like Pryce use to operate.
The Wilkin and Wheeler pairing obviously isn,t a long term option but merely to give the opportunity for Lomax to find his true position.
As for getting an experienced half back its looking like a very rare commodity these days.'"
What you just explained is Gaskell as a proper 6 with Wilkin playing first receiver i.e a traditional 7 role. I wouldnt have thought Wilkin was a long term option in the halves like yourself but Sinfield has converted to a half from 13 so maybe thats the plan for Wilkin .. ???
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| Quote ="bewareshadows"icon_biggrin.gifOH:
This really winds me up, I hope your not fishing with this statement?
'"
I think it's a fair point, fishing or not. Gaskell doesnt have a long term deal at Saints and if he doesnt get enough game time I would expect him to leave. I think like Saddo pointed out he's been a little hard done too but I cant see him sticking around if he's behind Wheeler , Wilkin, Lomax and maybe even Lance for a starting spot.
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| Quote ="wertyuio"And all this clamour for Lomax to be Full Back: fine if you are one of those who sees a full back that likes to be more of an attacking than defensvie player....the current vogue. I still maintain that your full back is ostensibly a defensive player......just ask the Australian team in November 2013 when they've peppered Tomkins with high (and subsequently dropped) balls or run over him from eight yards out or grounded the ball about four yards to his left (or right) just in time for him to slide in with his knees....still, he'll come into the line two or three times and score a try.'"
While they themselves will have the best attacking fullback (And prone to a costly error or two) in the world playing for them you mean? The fullback is the most important attacking player there is in the modern game as he's the hardest to line up against as they can float along behind the play and join in anywhere. Saints get stung by that so, so many times against teams like Warrington and Leeds who have quality fullbacks.
While we're at it, Wellens is terrible defensively as well as in attack. He's relatively safe under a high ball that is played right to him, but his lack of mobility means he simply doesn't get to balls anymore and puts us under pressure as our wingers have to cover half the width of the pitch whenever there is a kick. He is long overdue retirement and his performances this season so far have been farcical. Having the slowest player on the field playing fullback is just stupidity.
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| Quote ="Saddened!"While they themselves will have the best attacking fullback (And prone to a costly error or two) in the world playing for them you mean? The fullback is the most important attacking player there is in the modern game as he's the hardest to line up against as they can float along behind the play and join in anywhere. Saints get stung by that so, so many times against teams like Warrington and Leeds who have quality fullbacks.'"
McDonnell at Hull looks a good fulll back too, and Kearney's got 6 tries already for Bradford.
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| Quote ="Saddened!"While they themselves will have the best attacking fullback (And prone to a costly error or two) in the world playing for them you mean? The fullback is the most important attacking player there is in the modern game as he's the hardest to line up against as they can float along behind the play and join in anywhere.'"
Correct.
Whilst I'm not quite as strong in my criticism for Wellens that you are, I've been of the opinion for 2 years that Lomax is the perfect candidate for this role and we should've been looking to play him there more regularly for a while now.
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| I'd back johnny under the high ball though. I know we haven't seen much of him there, but we should really stay away from the mindset that if someone's good in attack, they will be poor in defence.
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| Quote ="Carlos Alberto"Is this the end of Gaskell at Saints?'"
I say if he not playing come may he would of signed for someone else
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| Just on attacking vs defensive fullbacks, the Aussies tend to produce players who are exciting on attack and yet solid in defence. Slater has the odd brain explosion, but is generally rock solid in defence and under the high ball.
Why should an 'attacking' fullback be unable to tackle or catch a kick? It seems a peculiarly British view to accept a player with only half the required skills (a bit like some people being seemingly happy with strong running centres who can't pass such as Yeaman).
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| Quote ="No1 Saint"I think it's a fair point, fishing or not. Gaskell doesnt have a long term deal at Saints and if he doesnt get enough game time I would expect him to leave. I think like Saddo pointed out he's been a little hard done too but I cant see him sticking around if he's behind Wheeler , Wilkin, Lomax and maybe even Lance for a starting spot.'"
It's the mind set that winds me up, I've said elsewhere, this kind of comment always comes up when one player is out for another player. So far we have seen the end of Perry, Lance, Makinson, Gaskell, Wellens, Ade etc at Saints and we are only 4 games in.
We have a squad of 30, and to be a top side you need depth in that squad. The season has started and we have the squad we have. So they should all be playing at some point in the season.
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| Quote ="Saddened!"While they themselves will have the best attacking fullback (And prone to a costly error or two) in the world playing for them you mean? The fullback is the most important attacking player there is in the modern game as he's the hardest to line up against as they can float along behind the play and join in anywhere. Saints get stung by that so, so many times against teams like Warrington and Leeds who have quality fullbacks.
While we're at it, Wellens is terrible defensively as well as in attack. He's relatively safe under a high ball that is played right to him, but his lack of mobility means he simply doesn't get to balls anymore and puts us under pressure as our wingers have to cover half the width of the pitch whenever there is a kick. He is long overdue retirement and his performances this season so far have been farcical. Having the slowest player on the field playing fullback is just stupidity.'"
Still believe that although Tomkins is a great player, he isn't a full back and will let a side down regulary however, it wasn't meant to be about him, but about the acceptance of an attacking style full back in favour of losing some (in my belief) essential defensive qualities. Tomkins was meant to be an example....just like Brent Webb. Its a comment on the fashion for attacking full bakcs often to the detriment of their defensive qualities. I've no doubt Lomax can catch a high ball and perhaps all the other defensive stuff....I do know that if he were to be asked to have a go at full back, it would be only fair to allow at least a full season at it, not belly ache over the odd poor or sometimes average performance he (or indeed any player) may give in a short and disrupted period he has (or they have) already had in their current positions.
....oh, and Wellens for England!
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| Quote ="Carlos Alberto"??'"
I'm easily hooked, by comments which suggest the end for a player after one game being out of the team. AKA the threads about Wellens being out, the thread about Gaskell and Makinson on the same page as this one, the threads in the past about Wheeler not getting anymore chances.
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| Quote ="bewareshadows"I'm easily hooked, by comments which suggest the end for a player after one game being out of the team. AKA the threads about Wellens being out, the thread about Gaskell and Makinson on the same page as this one, the threads in the past about Wheeler not getting anymore chances.'"
Except, of course, the club has form when it comes to dropping young players, especially Gaskell. So I don't think the question is at all unreasonable.
And while Gardner may offer some go forward in kick returns, some of the tries Makinson has scored Gardner wouldn't have come near to scoring. And Gardner doesn't have half Makinson's pace.
Meli won't be dropped no matter what a load of balls he plays because unfortunately, when it comes to senior players, they get to play regardless of their form, their abilities or their attitude.
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"Except, of course, the club has form when it comes to dropping young players, especially Gaskell. So I don't think the question is at all unreasonable.
And while Gardner may offer some go forward in kick returns, some of the tries Makinson has scored Gardner wouldn't have come near to scoring. And Gardner doesn't have half Makinson's pace.
Meli won't be dropped no matter what a load of balls he plays because unfortunately, when it comes to senior players, they get to play regardless of their form, their abilities or their attitude.'"
Gardner performed better on Saturday than Makinson has done so far this season (and scored a try). No point in Makinson having pace if he never uses it. He never beats the man on the outside, never comes in field looking for work and doesn't provide much go forward from kick returns. Its a toss up between Meli and Makinson for me, Gardner is fairly consistent.
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"
And while Gardner may offer some go forward in kick returns, some of the tries Makinson has scored Gardner wouldn't have come near to scoring. And Gardner doesn't have half Makinson's pace.
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You need to look at the whole package, an in form Gardner is a much better option, the only thing against him his age. Makinson is very frustrating, he,s a one trick pony at the moment, i,m expecting better things from him but he doesn,t seem to be able to go up another level.
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| Quote ="Judder Man"You need to look at the whole package, an in form Gardner is a much better option, the only thing against him his age.'"
I disagree.
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"I disagree.'"
Thats because you protect your 2 boys at all costs, something we might agree on.
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