Greenwood is a second row though!!

The club views him as a prop long term. Given the number of Props we have I guess that could change.

I really dislike squad numbers , positional numbering 1-17 for me everytime

+1

I liked it when, after they first introduced squad numbers (around '95?) they would still revert to 1-13 for the cup competition IIRC.

What are Yates and Speakman like? Everyone talks about the potential Percival has, but I've not really heard much about these two.

Both have played for the England Academy. Yates from what I have seen looks like a more traditional scrum half. Seems talented but could perhaps be a bit small. Speakman was a stand off but has converted to hooker. A very sharp passer of the ball. I think he will get a run at some point to give Roby a spell.

That didn't stop Rob Burrow. We should stop this obsession with size and allow the lads talent to be tested. If he is good enough his size is irrelevant.

Edit: I was referring to the half back positions.

Hello one and all, not been around for a while sadly, but just looked at the squad list, and see a couple of comments about short for cover, what are the key positions that most would like to see cover for? and if they could who would they like to see cover them.

I suspect our buying is done for the year.. if your being hypothetical I wouldnt mind Benji Marshall to add some competition in the halves, James Graham and Sonny Bill to make sure there's no slacking in the pack, Billy Slater to push Wello and make sure he's focussed every week at fullback and just to be sure we could bring in Cam Smith to warm the bench



Welcome back btw

Welcome back

I think we have lots of cover. I guess the really issue is whether we have the quality. The pack seams fine to me, but the backs are shall we say yet to be proven.

We have lots of options for FB so no worry there, but

Centre & halfbacks, are the key areas, I'd suggest that if Brown does not get what he needs from the backs, then this will be his shopping list for 2014 season.

We can say give them time, they may come good, but a coach is looking to the next win not the next trophy 3 years down the line. I'm not one for bashing every player, but if everyone gets a fair crack this year at playing, then it will be down to those players to prove they are SL quality now, I think we have had 2 years of they are young well that will only wash for so long, even for the best loved St. Helens lads.

We don't just lack cover in the centres and halves, we lack any quality there. If jones has second season syndrome we've got problems. I don't class wheeler as he never plays.

I don't think we've got great cover for any postions, the squad is pretty small. The first 17 is pretty good and maybe good enough to win something but after that we are pretty weak.

I don't think you will find many clubs with much depth beyond their first 17. It will be the quality of the juniors which will make the difference when injuries hit.

Your edit does cover the point I was trying to make. Some players play in the halves in the second team but are able to move to other position in the first team as they are big enough. Gary Wheeler moving to centre and Swift to wing/full back are good examples. Yates looks like he could only manage scrum half.

As for Burrow he has always struggled with his size, it took him a while to get over being hit by Watmough in the WCC, eventually moving to interchange hooker. For every small player that makes it there are ten that fail due to not being physically up to it.

Could go the other way though , if Jones kicks on and Brown can get the best out of Turner then we could have a good long term partnership . I agree on Wheeler though , he just doesn't seem to be able to string together the games needed to build some decent form and I still cant get over how badly out of place he looked at centre against the goons last year.

lack of quality/experience in the halves will no doubt bit us again this year, Gaskell has basically missed a year of development in favour of a dud in Hohaia

I agree, but a player should not be automatically dismissed due to his size ( I wasn't suggesting that you personally had done so ). There have been some terrific half backs who weren't the biggest. I just believe any player, large or small, deserves a chance to prove themselves. It just takes some longer than others to physically mature.

We have loads of cover and options in the forwards and at #1. We [icould[/i also have a really good 3/4 line and a really effective half-back partnership too by the playoffs, or we could be a waste of space all across the backline again - we're relying on a lot of young inexperienced players all coming good from #2 to #7 now and it could easily go either way at this stage. Brown's got his work cut out but we [icould[/i be a phenomenal all 'round team come the end of the season. Or we could just end up a slightly better version of last season's up-the-middle plodders...

And we may not have many internationals outside the starting 17 but that's simply the stark reality of the salary cap era and it's silly to even try and make a point otherwise - everyone has 18 or 19 established experienced players max and then you're into the kids: it's exactly the same for every team in the league from Warrington down to London.

The point about squad depth is pretty redundant in a salary capped sport. The way around this is squad management, and it is something that Warrington got right last season (few injuries) and it got them all the way to OT.

The back line is the issue for us and if you compare it with the likes of Wigan/Leeds/Warrington it is where we fall short. It is a shame really as our pack is amongst the best in the league and as we found out last year: the pack can get you into great field position, but the backs NEED to capitalise on such territory, and we failed to do that a number of times last season - i.e. Wigan away in the CC, Warrington at home (both times) etc etc.

Outside of Wellens (yes Wellens), Lomax and Makinson I cannot really see any more strike players; Turner is unproven as is Gaskell, Jones had a very good debut season, Meli is an unknown quantity but he was one of the better performers last season and Gardner needs to regain fitness really.

Will our back-line strike fear into the opposition? I don't think so really.

Saints: Wellens/Makinson/Meli/Turner/Gardner/Gaskell/Lomax
Leeds: Hardaker/Hall/Moon/Watkins/BJB/McGuire/Sinfield
Wigan: Tomkins/Richards/?/Goulding/Charnley/Green/Smith
Warrington: Hodgson/Riley/Atkins/Ratchford/Monaghan/Briers/Myler

Pretty poor reading really...

Yes - our 3/4 line looks very poor compared to Wigan's - I hear that that "?" lad is a real tasty player...

We're a bit lacking compared to Warrington and Leeds maybe but I wouldn't swap our backs for Wigan's - a probably-soon-off-to-RU-or-NRL Tomkins and a past-it Richards aside they have little there to frighten the horses frankly. Goulding and Charnley are OK but hardly world-beaters and Smith/Green is vanilla-looking even if we're being charitable. Meli is a proven top attacking player whether you like it or not. Gardner does a job on the rare occasions he's fit and would make most sides in the league. Wellens has another good season in him if he's spelled a bit with our reserve World-Cup winning FB and some of the very good young talent we have there as a bonus. We have Jones, Gaskell, Makinson, Wheeler, Lomax & Turner all with great potential (plus the likes of Swift and Ashe in the background) - if half of them kick on and develop as they could under some good coaching next season then our 3/4 line could easily be as good as any in the league. I frankly see no reason for doom or gloom over our backs at this stage and plenty for hope and excitement.

I would[i expect[/i Jones to suffer from second season syndrome. Is there a player that hasn't?

Josh Charnley?

But I'd rather have Goulding and Charnley over Turner and Gardner. I'd rather have Tomkins over Wellens/Hohaia. That's the point I was making.

In the halves they look weak, but so do we considering what happened last year. At least we have youth on our side and hopefully Brown can get them back to how they played in 2011.



I said Meli was one of our better performers - don't be so defensive over him!





I've posted numerous times about being excited for 2013 - I was just making the point that on paper our backs let us down, and they did so at various points last season. There is lots of room for improvement and there is potential there.

Sam Tomkins, James Roby, James Graham, Zak Hardaker.

They were all eased into first team action though. Jones was thrown in (and has done very well).

I actually think his [i2nd season[/i syndrome came towards the end of the season. He wasn't doing anything wrong, but not as much was going his way.
I'm looking forward to seeinghim next year.

Tomkins I'll give you, I think Hardaker's tough time will come this year when he's playing a full year as the No 1 full back. I think both have benefited from positional changes that allowed them more freedom in attack whilst excused certain defensive mistakes that would have been questioned more had they stayed in their initial positions. Roby and Graham had the benefit of being in positions where they were able to be rotated when they were struggling, bar that their second seasons were nearly ten years ago and I don't remember them fully.

You've also picked 3 arguably world class players and a potential one, I'm not sure Jones is at that level (though he may turn out to be). IMO second season syndrome is a product of youth players being found out to an extent, what worked for them initially is noted and defended, and it's whether they are able to change their games and get past that which decides what kind of player they are going to be.

Offside Monkey may well be right, Jones's difficult period may have been the back end of the season when he was found out a touch. I just hope that if he does go through a period of difficulty next year the fans stay off his back in a way that some didn't when Foster went through a similar period.


Didn't Charnley go through a period where he struggled badly defensively especially under the high ball? He does appear to have worked through that to an extent, and I'm not sure second season syndrome actually lasts an entire year