If blame is getting banded around what exactly does Kieron do?

Is he there to train and get the forwards motivated as thats not working



He'll always be a legend at Saints but coaching isn't his forte maybe?

If he is helping to condition the players then its not working, if he is providing big match experience mentality then thats not working either, if he is sorting out our defence structure then thats not working at all.
The whole coaching structure needs to be re modelled top to bottom.

He used to be on the pitch during the warm up and huddle the forwards to pep them up, not seen him do that in a long time

He's our forwards coach, that should tell you all you need to know about his coaching abilities

Pull his statue down then and put it in our dressing room and it will do more use as him now?

I do fear we have become a retirement home for former players.

Sure Wigan have their fair share too, but we do seem to be getting chock full, to the point where players still playing are waiting for a spot to open up.

Maybe we should not be hiring players the second they retire and we should just be getting the best man for the job.

I'm starting to fear the opposite - that people underestimate how important having people like Wellens and Cunningham around the club is. I get very nervy reading some people advocate a mass clearout of some of the proudest and most committed players the club has ever had.

Do we really think the attitude around the club would improve by getting shut of the likes of Wellens and Cunningham?

People are casting envious glances over at Wigan and the part played by Wane and Radlinski as home town boys, yet think our way to a more passionate club is cutting ties with our passionate past?

Well why isn't Kieron & Wello getting the best out of the players now?
Kieron should be bouncing them of the dressing room walls and demanding the war like attitude that Wane's boys do at Wigun?

Wane served his apprenticeship under Maguire - he didn't need to send them bouncing out of the dressing room because Maguire (as HEAD COACH) was more than capable of doing that.

Keiron is assistant to Brown. He is not head coach. He doesn't have the final say on tactics like making our outside backs cart the first 4 tackles in our own 20 metre area. Those tactics actually have a massive impact on how we all view our forwards because we never see them doing the tough stuff, but then again I think they're told not to!

Keiron isn't the one standing up at half time in a game we're getting mullered, with a defeatist, hands in pocket stance like Brown did at the weekend.

Wellens, when on the pitch, provides the sort of influence you would expect him to. He's not on the pitch enough in my opinion (we often look a different side when he is) and it's difficult for him to influence these car crash starts to games from the bench. Having said that, I dread to think what this team would be like without him there every day in training. You could see what it all means to him after the game at the weekend.

Cunningham and Wellens do not pick the team and do not decide whether to drop under-performing players. I get the feeling that if Wellens was picking the team this weekend we'd see some casualties.

The lads we have aren't capable of a war-like attitude and that's the problem. We've signed yellow-bellied fluff while Wigan have prioritised toughness and mental strength as the number 1 attribute for any new signing.

How can you fear the opposite. We are where we are and the people are in place. What track record do these people have outside of playing?

Did any of them go to another club and get experience elsewhere?

Not all players are great coaches and some of the best coaches in the world were not the best players.

Like I say we are already looking for a coaching position for Wellens, some want Longy back? Longy has at least gone elsewhere for some experience and to build up a proven record in coaching. Although now is probably not the best time for him to come in.

All these people were in place under Royce too. If a team performs badly the whole team needs looking at not just the figure head.

We,ve just been discussing the very thing that Wellens should be 60-70 mins on the field and not 60-70 mins on the bench, no other team in the comp has the team captain watching the game for such a long period without direct influence.
Either that or don,t pick him at all in the 17 and give the captaincy to Walsh or Wilkin, attitude is a BIG issue from now on otherwise we are not mentally fit to compete in Superleague.

Yep, and "where we are" (in my opinion) is a couple of tweaks away from a side that can genuinely challenge.

I don't think the tweaks required are getting rid of Cunningham and Wellens.

There are a lot of things I don't agree with, and they are down to Brown, not Cunningham/Wellens:
- Playing with your captain on the bench for 70 out of every 80 minutes
- Refusing to drop underperforming players to your feeder club
- Not instructing your forwards to carry the ball out of your own 20 in early tackles when being pinned down (I have no issue with wingers taking early drives, but not when you are penned in your own half for 25 minutes!!)
- Insisting on starting with a weaker pack when there are options on the bench, then seeing yourself massively behind early time and time and time and time again
- Openly claiming that games against big rivals are just another game
- Incessant swapping of halves week to week and even in game

and so on . . . .

Totally agree.

Hey up, is it Cunningham's time to get slaughtered now?

There's something clearly not right at the club. I've seen everything and everyone get blamed from players, coaches, kit man, the woman who works on till in ticket office...the problem isn't down to the players conditioning, fitness etc It's attitude, plain and simple. That comes from Brown. I have no idea why but there's unhappiness in the camp and it's up to Brown and nobody else to nip that in the bud...but for some reason instead he appears to be pouring petrol on the flames. He's not dealing with the problem and even though we're 1 point off top, that's deeply concerning.

So its Brown's fault. Presumably before that it was Simmons' fault, then Potter's fault. Maybe it was Anderson who started the rot before 'getting the hell out of Dodge'?

It would appear that someone at St Helens clearly has a gift for seeking out inadequate coaches!

Blimey, what a terrible season you are having, only second in the table. Where will it end?

Ultimately, yes.

A strong coach would have a grip on things.

To the poster above, yes we're doing great in 2nd place however us fans are concerned about what's being said by our chairman, our coach and our captain. Them 3 are using the media to show the clear discontent in the camp. Are we supposed to just ignore what's being said because we're 2nd in table?

Who knows? We now have another three players missing including Lomax and Walmsley. I would imagine a slide down the league table is what is coming next.

Think people forget Waney has been a coach to a lot of these players since they entered the game as young lads he was like a second dad to them and they still respect him today as they did then.

You have spoken more sense in that post than I have seen from anyone else. People need to wake up to the point you make. Getting rid of your coach, repeatedly (by means of firing or non renewal of contract) is not the answer. Sacking players that consistently under perform IS!

Sacking players is the most ridiculous statement on here:

a) players count on the cap, and that includes any payoff a player gets from a dismissal (oddly firing due to poor form isn't seen as a legit reason to change your team) - so even supposing a player only has a year left on the contract, you can't bring any one in to replace them, because you don't have the cap space to replace them.

b) even of you could, players don't join teams who sack for things as frivolous as form. Certainly not good ones.

c) more to the point - who would you sack? And when? Lms was in great form at the end of last season, and the majority had no qualms with his contract extension at the start of the year. Even with perry/ hohaia who arguably never hit the heights they were supposed to, when is the final solution the only solution? Until recently, there were those on here (myself included) who would consider wheeler re-signing (for a paltry figure) to remove the threat of the decision to let him go haunting us for years (fortunately wheeler is doing a good job of that himself) - people like soliola had a shocker of a first season and would probably have been let go - he's been one of our most consistent performers in recent years.

d) even supposing, we pick the perfect time to remove a player from our services, were able to in a way which had no impact on our salary cap, and without affecting our future ability to recruit players - who would be available to replace them? The players available are going to be the ones who aren't wanted at their own clubs or not good enough to make it abroad - why would we want other clubs rejects when we have our own?

No, we may be carrying some average players at the moment, but so is every team. What makes jordan James look like a world beater compared to lms is the quality and quantity of coaching staff around one and not the other - not just the head coach -until we recruit a first class TEAM, not just the head - players and coaches will come and go with the same issues occurring.

I don't think cunningham will make a good saints coach unless he spends some time away from saints. He's too close to the club.

We've some catching up to do before we reach wigan's 90's/00's coach consumption rate though.

He doesn't necessarily need to spend time away from the club, but he needs to spend more time in the background - he will only be ready when everyone around the club remember him as a coach from the first day they were at the club. Right now, he'd be coaching players he played with, let alone started coaching as youngsters, and that's a bad position to be in.

Whether he spends the time at another club lower down the divisions, or in the back ground of saints is his choice - but he certainly isn't ready for top job (though I'd love to be proven wrong - imo we need a coach to be able to come in and work long term, too many times have we had coaches for a couple of years then move on - there's no consistency in that!)