He's had almost a full season and we're no better than we were at the start. The first half hour was utterly shambolic, as bad as anything at the start of the season. We were flaccid and timid in the pack and completely lacking in any sort of structure or plan. Who is to blame? Well clearly the players for lacking the aggression and will to fight to stay in a game, but it wasn't helped by Brown's team selection. I almost cried when the team was announced and Walker was starting. Why, just why? We're not a great side, so start the big boys, start with aggression and try to be in the game. What's the point in having a strong bench when we're 22-0 down?

I know we're lacking a scrum half, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to put some structures in place and define a way of playing. We stink in attack, the hesitancy from dummy half and the lack of planned moves is ridiculous as is the lack of physical aggression and fight. LMS chest banging in the derby once isn't good enough, it has to be 100% aggression all the time.

Major talking point of the night for me is when the RFL are going to adopt the Rugby Union rule for when a player kicks the ball dead over the goal line. It's such a negative tactic, requiring absolutely no skill at all and allows teams losing the forward battle to default to the opposition start on their 20 with no momentum at all. Get it changed.

This i have a major problem with. If you kick from your own half and it goes over the dead ball line, bring it back to the receiving teams 40m line for a tap. Such a cop out and boring tactic. Doesnt matter if the kicker didnt mean it either, bring it back

Have you seen the interview Brown gave after the game to Sky, he spoke really well & impressed me. No kidding he really did.

If NB were to leave Saints (which he will not) who could you have as replacement. There is no one absolutely no one.

Tony Smith will leave for another project once he wins a Grand Final.

I think we need to stick with Brown. Starting with Walker was a joke but we need to hang in and hope he knows this aint Huddersfield and we will hang him next year if it does not come right.

Very harsh to say he's not good enough after one injury hit season. Brown is dealing with the mistakes made by previous coaches.

He's come to a team with no halfbacks, we've had backrows, fullbacks, centres playing in the halves which IMO is impossible to challenge for anything with that situation.

He's also come to a squad with a prop problem. We got very very lucky that walmsley stood up so early as Perry is a complete waste of space. Laffranchi isn't a prop as long as his lives. Clough isn't good enough at all. So basically we had Lms as our only out and out decent prop.

The centre is another problem, he came to a club that has played 5 seasons with only one centre. I find this utterly shocking for a supposedly big club to have only one out and out centre on the books!

The injuries to key players hasn't helped at all either. We've had Roby, sia and lomax (our best 3 players) out for large periods of the season. Wouldn't be surprised if they have played only half the season.

We've also give a lot of young lads debuts this year due to injuries which isn't ideal. It's much easier bringing them in gradually in a experienced team playing well.

I'd much rather give my verdict on Brown next September. Next season will be more of his team with a halfback he wanted. He can only bring in what mcamus will allow. It's clear he knows we've got halfback and prop problems and he's trying to sort that mess he was left with.

I still have faith in Brown but anyone who thinks he can change it around in one season must be mad. This IMO is at least a 3 year Job to turn us into cup winners again unless he can splash the cash like Wigan and Salford.

Other than the obvious financial reasons, why do we need to stick with him? The whole club just looks like it's going through the motions. At Huddersfield Brown had a real trademark way of playing. His side was very, very aggressive and played the game at a real pace, not afraid to get it wide early. After a full season Saints still look clueless. It's like every play the ball is a surprise. The dummy half, usually Howarth, gets the ball and hesistates as there are no players making runs. He then throws the ball to a player who pauses, looks around and gets ploughed to the floor. After this is repeated several times we revert to one out rugby. We waste so many tackles it's untrue. Tonight we got several penalties in the Wire half. We put daft, almost sidewards kicks in as if we wanted to start on their 20. Then we'd waste the first three tackles getting to their line.

Saints at the moment are 17 solid professionals playing off the cuff rugby, just as any 17 players assembled from the NRL and SL would do if you threw them into a game with no training as a team. Makes me wonder what exactly the players do all week in training.

He can't work miracles with rubbish if we are honest. The squad is pretty poor. I know some on here get carried away if we best one of the big four and predict we can win super league but I'm a realist and this squad is pretty poor.

In fact the squad is a mess. Not a single halfback in the squad. Only one omit and out experienced super league prop. Only one centre.

What do people expect a coach to do with no centre, stand off , scrum half and one/two props?

Fair enough, I agree with a lot of that. But wouldn't you expect to see some sort of progress by now? Although we've added Walsh, it's a marginal improvement given the backs are weaker due to Meli departing and Masoe for TP unlikely to be a significant improvement, if one at all.

A good coach in that situation would always stand on the touchline, wear cool shades and fist pump when we do play well.

Don't forget, all our plays and structures we worked on pre season was with lomax and Gaskell as the halves and robes at 9. With one game to go we've changed that god knows how many times for one reason or another and it all went out the window.

He has said we had to simplfly our plays for this reason.

I think Brown needs 3 seasons to sort this mess out. The past signings and retention is the real reason we are like we are. I've been saying this was coming since 2009. The recruitment and retention has been shocking.

We are saying we will miss meli next year and I'm 100% sure we will be let's be honest, he should have been released and replaced two years ago along with Ade.

We've kept giving players new deals which we shouldn't and now Brown needs to replace them virtually altogether.

Like I said, it's a 3 year job IMO which will mean him getting shut of the dead wood and try to replace them with no money.

Maybe he will when we do play well

Oh I'm with you there bro. I've been on that train with you the whole way.

OK mastermind I'll humour you so here's some questions for you. Elementary but that's the level I am dealing with:

1. Brown is less than 1 year into a 3 year contract. Where would you find the money to compensate him for that if we sacked him? Be specific. Where would it come from?

2. If Brown is sacked who do we replace him who can guarantee....guarantee...that performances would be better than we have seen this year and would win us trophies? Who? A name or names please. Oh and they have to be available too by the way.

3. Ref (2), above, how can you arrive at that guarantee with said financial outlay as per (1), above? Eamonn would love to know.

4. Does that level of risk constitute best business or sporting practice? If 'yes' - how? I am a curious soul who, after 30 years in business is always willing to learn.

5. Demonstrate examples of where changing your coach every year guarantees improvement. Pick a sport. Any. Over a 3 year period let's say - where?

6. Explain what NB was supposed to have done with the shambles he inherited? Note use of language - not 'chose' but 'inherited'.

7. Do you think Tony Smith, Michael McGuire and Shaun Wane are good coaches? Simple question so yes or no will do - don't get into stuff you are not good at. Like 2+ syllables. Or anything sensible.

8. When you've either failed to answer the above or spouted some of your usual tripe explain why you feel the parody you portray on here is remotely funny. You have spent over 20000 posts trying to prove it which just goes to show you're as good a comedian as Lance Hohaia is a half back. Hope that give you some perspective by the way. Just reflect on that for a while. Your head may hurt but just take it one brain cell at a time. On that basis I'll allow you an extra 5000 years to answer this one.

9. Why don't you do genuine Saints fans who have a bone fide opinion a favour and just stop posting? You are not funny, ill informed, know the square root of bugger all about RL or business and are utterly tiresome. And clearly never attend a game. Still, at least Sky will be glad you exist.

Please answer them all. And then I'll respond and tear you another new one.

Goodnight.

5) Chelsea, Champions League. Boom!

I win.

And on Saints, I bet you were one of the fools who thought we were going places under McManus. I said repeatedly years ago we'd end up in this mess and very few listened. I've said above that I recognise the financial implications of sacking him, but answer my question, would you not expect to see some progress by now? If you read my posts from last season when Brown was appointed you'll see I predicted the slow start under him as well. But even I expected some form of improvement by now and it's not materialising.

Must pain you greatly that I'm so popular? If I left, this place would be mothballed within two months.

I'm a Nathan Brown fan, but he was to blame for that poor start IMO.

Why on earth was LMS on the bench? I can't think of any logical explanation for it. He's been our best forward recently. Also, soliola on the bench?

I think he went for a defensive set up at the start of the match. But even the best defensive set up will struggle with ball turned over so easily.

When I saw the line up it looked like soak it up for 20 minutes, the bring your hard runners on to run at tiring legs.

But the team turne over ball to easily and let Warrington control the pace of the game.

In the end it comes back to the squad available. Wilkin can match it agaist weaker teams, but against quality he suffers and because Lance cant kick he is an easy target. Hence a charge down on the third tackle.

Several forwards got hammered in the tackle and lost ball.

Howarth again showed that his pedestrian speed at dummy half will get killed in high intensity games.

I was amazed we got so close after 22-0.

There were problems, but look at that against a good warrington side and the drubbing against Huddersfield and tell me we have not improved.

Since game 1.

FB +ve
Swift and Makinson +ve
Turner Meli +ve
Wilkin +ve Lance -ve
TP same
Laffranchi -ve
Howarth -ve
Walker +ve
Jones +ve
Manu +ve

Bench

Wellens same
LMS +ve
Sia same
Warmsley +ve

It's only my opinion but players that are improving the side are more in +ve than -ve.

we need a back up hooker but Howarth is not it for me.
Lance is not better, but look what GOB did for us in a few games. Even he tonight would have closed the gap with defense and kicking alone, never mind his running game and balance he brought to the team. Warrington are likely to end 2nd and we ran them close with zero halves and kicking on the 4th from the centre position.

Yes we are not great, but we are better than you credit us.

We've been hamstrung by issues with the key positions this year which have lasted pretty much all season.

Given we've had makeshift 6, 7 and 9 all year along with the number of youth players we've had to blood I don't think 5th is that bad a position to finish (as long as we win next week of course)

If hull beat us and Catalan win, we are 7th.

and for that alone Brown should go.

So gentle should be sacked. The French guy at Catalan should be sacked as well.

For me, the strong bench and weaker starting team was clearly an error which Brown has to hold his hand up to, but he is known for tinkering with his team instead of finding his best combination and sticking with it. Saying that, he is working with the hand he was dealt, the no half back issue has killed us all season and our props, for most if the season, have been second rate. Walmsley has been the standout and LMS for the last few games playing from 13 has been in his best form since joining us. As for the rest, well, there is a reason we are vying for 5-7 position in the league, half backs or not.

Whilst Walsh and Masoe will be big pluses next year, I fear these signings may not be enough to get us back into the top 4. We need a 6 and another prop at least. I hear we may be after a very physical english back rower, which will divide opinion, but I think Brown should focus his efforts in the areas where we can make the biggest impact.

McManus will stick with Brown for the duration of his contract, that's pretty obvious, but next season will be the deciding factor as to whether he stays on after year 3 IMO. The club won't want to be paying more compensation to sacked coaches, that's for sure.

For me, the biggest issue was that our last home game at LP, after what is now seemingly a false dawn, was a complete anti-climax. It could still be the last home game for TP, Meli, Lance et al and we went out with a whimper. It certainly wasn't the best advert for season ticket renewals and the business is clearly the most important thing. Our product this season has been sub par, everyone knows that and its a combination of things that has caused it, but mostly out poor recruitment over the last 4/5 years. Unfortunately its like turning a supertanker and only a big shift in our player recruitment will make any significant difference to our fortunes on the field and in turn, make our business more profitable.

I don't think we need a 6 and a prop to be top 4. But we do to challenge.

We got 5th with less this year than we already have next year.

The period with GOB has shown what we can do with a loan halfback.

So give us a fulltime half and some of this years losses become wins.

In the end it's not satisfactory to have a throw away year, but it's been a bit like that. Even so there are positives and whilst last night did not work out I could see the plan with the big fellas on the bench. Brown tries to match a side to the opposition so he does have a plan, but was failed by players turning over easy ball. Wilkin - kick, Walker - carry, there were others but the events are a bit of a blur.

Last night was the most obvious game I have ever seen where the coach lost us the match more than the players.
To pick his opening side as he did and leave better players on the bench was a ridiculous decision. Coaching 101 - start with your strongest team and finish with your strongest team. Why Brown feels the need to mess about with a proven formula is beyond me.
Had we won last night then next week would have been meaningless (therefore a game he could experiment seeing if Walker was a starting prop, putting players again in other roles than their best position) - so every effort to win should have been made, including playing Roby as we have been told he is fit and available, starting on the front foot, aggressive defence and holding them out. Not letting them get a 22 point lead.
One of the worst coaching decisions he has made all year and jeez he has made some of them.

All of the arguments why this year are not relevant when judging last nights performance