Looked physically up to Super League to me tonight, but where on earth does his future lie positionally? I was looking forward to seeing him play centre as we've got 2 berths wide open there for me, none of our centres and I'll include Turner in that look set in the positions permanently. He looked okay, did well defensively, but his decision making on the break at the end was horrific, the complete opposite of natural centre play. Either run straight and put Makinson in for an easy try or run straight and put Wello in for another belly flop over the line under the posts. Those were his two options. Instead he chose to zigzag up the pitch and be bundled into touch. Demonstrates I guess what having a fullback who can run does as well, superb work from Owen.

I liked the look of Griffin as well, he's certainly got the physical attributes and pace to be a top player.

Congratulations - you managed to get two sly digs in at Wellens (one of our best performers on the night) in a post ostensibly about another player. Well done!

Swift looks better suited to full back looked comfortable under a high ball and very evasive in open play.
However the wannabee full backs have one problem taking the shirt off Wellens, he played another superb game last night.
Swift plays with a lot of enthusiasm but as already pointed out is inexperienced in decision making at Superleague level.

I'd have said fullback myself , Jones looks a natural centre and hopefully Turner will fill the other side. Wellens had one of his better games but it still changes nothing re him being well past his best

I'm not sure yet, possibly full back but he is absolutely rapid in open space. Swift and Makinson lit up an absolutely horrible game and it was a shame he chose the wrong option on the hooter because that would've been try of the season. We've been crying out for some excitement at the back and it was nice to actually see us run the length twice (Makinson try and Swift no try).

Swift is a long term Full Back if you ask me! Its a shoot out between him and Makinson to replace Wello wheather that will be 2013 or 2014.

Spot on.

Had Swift just passed back to Makinson instead of going for the line himself that would have been a superb try. I loved watching the interplay between those two and, along with the run by LMS to earn the drop out, made up the highlights of an otherwise bloody awful match, regardless of the fact that we won.

Wellens was on his knees, he could not believe the mess that had been made of a dead cert try. 3 on 1 I think it was.

Wellens should look to his own performances before criticising those of a young person on his fourth first grade game. I've lost count of the number of try scoring chances we have lost thanks to him taking the ball to the line but getting nowhere when there was a centre on his left (usually because he hardly ever plays down the right) available to score instead.

Besides, I'm sure our delightful coach will give Swift's backside a good kicking, as he apparently does to our young players.

Love how people say Wello played well because he scored again. His try was the easiest anyone could ever score and was superb work by Flannery.

Not sure but didn,t Wello do a 1-2 with Flannery, Wello short ball to Flannery then Flannery from being tackled short ball to Wello.
Thought Wello did other things well escaping twice from the in goal area, good support play. Makinson needs to follow Wellens when returning the ball, there was a couple of chances of an offload but Makinson couldn,t read the possible play.
Hope Brown works quickly on improving Lomax, Makinson, Swifts game awareness.

Wellens must have really p!ssed Saddened off when he refused to sign his autograph book.

I love Wello, but I just feel like the club is stuck in a time warp. For every other club in Rugby League the fullback position has changed. It is no longer the Rugby League equivalent of the goalkeeper in football. The fullback is not there purely to catch high balls and be the last line of defense like it used to be. Saints fans are stuck in that mentality, so willing to gloss over Wello's glaring failings by comforting themselves with his ability to catch and the odd tackle he makes. Wello, as is the case with all our players, is rated by the fans because he doesn't make many mistakes, not because he does do positive things.

The fullback is now arguably the most important attacking player after the scrumhalf. The 7 organises and schemes, but the fullback is the one who has the ability to be unpredictable. Good fullbacks can chime into the line literally anywhere they like, making lining up a defense incredibly difficult. They are also like a third halfback, with the ball skills to act as a third pivot in the attacking line. They are meant to attack from around the ruck from deep and on the fringes further up the field. The most important atttibutes for a fullback are now pace, the ability to chime into the attack and passing. Another vital aspect is bringing the ball back. Teams like Cas, Huddersfield, Warrington etc will get a 20 metre headstart on us, simply from their fullback being able to a) get to the ball quickly and b) run it back quickly. When you compound this with our complete lack of a kicking game and we're making our pack work overtime.

But hey ho, let's all bury our heads in the sand and keep telling ourselves we're great. Some of the Saints fans are as delusional as whoever writes Eamon's matchday magazine column.

Saddened I agree that Wellens is not what he used to be, but you can't let that blinker you to the good things he does. In addition to the Judder mans examples. There was also the makinson try down in the east corner. At the play the ball, Wello read the numbers well and ran from one side of the play the ball as he had seen that there was an overlap out wide. He had got into position and whipped a cracking ball out wide missing out 2 players to get Makinson in.

That's the type of thing our supposes halfbacks should be doing, ie reading the game and then moving around the field and selecting the correct option ie a long cut out pass to give us the best oppertunity of scoring.

Wello was on form yesterday and whether we think it's a one off or not, we should not let an agenda get in the way of congratulating a player when they have had a good game. Most of the week we spend time having a go at the club and the players, but surely after a match we can give credit were it's due.

I think the critism of Wellens early in the season was justified but over the last 10 games or so has had a big contribution to our winning performances.
I,m not really into this myth of a full back needs to be quick to run the ball back, I,ve watched how his possible replacement Makinson runs the ball back from deep, he does a lot of cross field running at fast pace but doesn,t really make any more metres than Wello.
Wilkin and Wello get a fair bit of stick from fans on here, but the fact is they are not error free but really hold the team together, both of these are also getting more involved in the build up of trys due to the absence of our quality half back play.
Wello is having one of the best seasons for trys scored and I should imagine his stat of try assists is high as well, if we have a replacement who is a better overall player then Yes replace him, in reality we don,t because there is a lot more to consider other than running the ball back and making a further 10 metres.

I dont understand this constant criticism of Wellens and the thought that pretty much any player with a bit of speed can play better at fullback.
There was never any of this criticism 5 years ago even though his game hasnt changed that much over that time.So what has changed in that time since there were always fullbacks who were better attacking than defending?
There is one thing to my mind that has set peoples expectations to be higher than they previously were and that is the ability of Tomkins. The way that he plays at fullback isnt a new thing - but it is by a British player - the bar was set by Slater but before him there were any number of other fullbacks who were doing the same thing - they just werent as good at it - Webb, Hodgson, Greenshields are examples of these.
You can go even further back and look at the two different styles of fullback play players such as Dave Lyon, Alan Tait all played a far more attacking style - but it was always at the expense of their other fullback skills, tackling, positional sense, Radlinski took it a step further by also having an all round game, we even tried Alan Hunte at fullback who looked really good for about 2 games till other teams realised he wasnt a natural fullback.

The point I am trying to make is that not only do you need a player who is fast, evasive with handling skills of a halfback to emulate the way Tomkins and Slater play - but you also need good halfbacks to create that space for them to exploite who also in turn need a dominant pack. It was evident in the most recent defeats for Wigan that without the last 2 the first doesnt show up. It simply will not work just changing the fullback.

The simple fact of the matter is that from the team we have right now we can either

Play Wellens as the best fullback we have at the club

Play Lomax there but we are then left with no halfback with the skill to produce space - we would also weaken our structure as he would need to learn the role

Put Makinson/Swift/any other outside back there who dont have the handling skills and would take a couple of years to fully understand the full backs role (Tomkins made the transition from halfback to fullback with the 1:1 coaching of Radlinski - that sped up the process) and may never be as good as Wellens is right now.

Bring in someone from outside who already has the required attributes the cost and just who would that be seem to be limiting factors to this.

There are anumber of clubs who have changed their option at fullback this year - most of who are not getting the results they would like - Hull, Huddersfield, Cas, Widnes, Bradford. And others who are getting some success - Leeds.

A blinkered view of a particular individual doesnt resolve the problems we may have.

Can you lot tell me what Wellens does exactly? Is it just the fact that he doesn't drop bombs very often that makes you think he'd be better at fullback than Hohaia (A world cup winning fullback), Makinson, Swift or even Gaskell or Lomax? Is it just the absence of errors that makes you feel comfortable with him there?

The problem at the club is that we can,t speed up the development process of our young promising players quick enough especially in the important pivotal positions. Wello is still our best all round full back and offers experience, direction, he reads the game well for the next defensive/offence plays.
We could throw Swift or Makinson in at full back but that would mean of the main pivotable positions 1,6,7,9,13 we only have Roby with the necessary skillset to consistently trouble the opposition.
Historically when our full back loses pace they usually spend the latter years in the pack, times have changed I suppose.

Apparently, eh? So, in other words, you made it up.

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Wellens does everything that you would expect of a fullback with 10 years experience.
His positional sense is probably his best attribute, this makes his lack of blistering pace less of a problem than it would be.
His one on one tackling is as good as anyones in an exposed position and better than most.
His ability to join the line at just the right time is evident by the number of trys and assists he has this season
His experience to guide his team round the park
His kick returns are generally sound and make ground, his evasive qualities keep him away from the opposition more times than he gets tackled easily - this gives the team time to regroup.
He also is very sound under the kick - dont be-little that skill as players have been crucified in this team for not being.

What I can tell you is that Makinson, Swift or even Gaskell or Lomax have none of those attributes - could some learn them? probably, would that happen by placing them in the first team at fullback? it would be far more likely that the number of errors they would make at that level would criple them confidence wise - so the way they would learn is A team rugby, the coaching staff do seem to be trying different options at fullback in the A team - it doesnt look like they have found anyone ready to slot into that position yet.
Your thoughts of putting anyone there ahead of Wellens is based on a guess that it might work. Thank God that the coaching staff have a better process to find out if they can play there first. But the obvious point is that people playing regular first team will not get this chance unless you decide to leave them out of first team rugby to learn a different position - and thats not a luxury we can afford at the moment.
As for Hohaia - I assume you did see his performance in the full back role at the beggining of the season - what did you see there that could possibly make him the man for the job?

Not entirely. I have watched Wello in the latter part of this season and he does the same thing pretty much every game: he gets the ball (from whoever passes it to him) runs down the left channel and keeps trying to score until he does. He very rarely passes it to his centre, even when a try looks more likely by doing so. The ball more often than not dies with Wello in our 20, when he is involved. He has scored as many tries as he has in part because he doesn't pass within our 20. If he passed more often then IMO he would score fewer but others would score more.

It was under Royce that Wello developed the attacking side to his game. That isn't me making stuff up; Wello himself said in an interview that Royce had asked him to play as a third halfback to help out what were then two very raw actual halfbacks in Gaskell and Lomax. It worked a treat under Royce because Wello was less inclined to hold on to the ball and varied when and where he chimed in. But this season he is as predictable as the weather and that has made him frustrating to watch and IMO less effective in attack.

Playing as an attacking fullback isn't his natural style. He is a defensive fullback and it is in his defence where all his attributes lie. I also don't think he is a good captain but that is because he complains so much without the accompanying firing up of his team mates that Jammer used to bring to the party (and that balanced up HIS propensity to complain).


Wello will not have been as able a fullback when he started as he is now. Young players, like Wello himself once was, only learn their trade by playing once they have mastered the basic skills. Makinson IMO has shown good signs of game awareness but if he isn't played at fullback he will never learn how to become a better fullback. I can't comment on Swift or Gaskell at fullback because I've not seen either play there. I've only seen Lomax play there once I think and that was ages ago.


Hohaia is a world cup winning fullback. I think to question his ability there is foolish. He succeeded there against Australia, which is more than Wello has ever done.

He doesnt only run down one channel - he runs down the left mainly due to the natural ability of players to pass to the left - however he has also been very effective at running down the right channel, taking inside balls etc. he has 10 assists (prior to Friday) which is the 3rd highest in the team
Does he get it right every time? No
Does he get it right more often than he doesnt? with 20 tries and 10 assists I would say yes


I dont think you are making stuff up and Royce may have asked him to ammend his style - but he has been scoring try's concistently since 2005 and one of his worst returns for try's was last year with 14 so his old style was working for him also. Perhaps the change in style was more ed around helping young players rather than improving his own play? just a thought


I dont agree with the use of the word all when describing his sum of attributes. You are right that he is a natural defensive fullback - but he has been scoring as many tries as most full backs since the turn of the century - and most years far more than you would expect from a fullback (these are off course the years before attack seems to be the number one priority looked for in a fullback rather than defence)


I agree that as a captain he doesnt stand up against previous captains we have had


We are talking different era's but what I do know is that Wellens's early appearances at full back would have earned him a 20 page topic on here looking for an alternative and comparing him unfavourably to every full back previously to play for Saints - he was that bad, his game at Gateshead was atrocious - nowadays he would have been immediatly dropped - different era's - different needs


Dont think that at any time I am suggesting that Hohaia is a bad player - there are [uno[/u players who are playing professional rugby league who are bad players. But once you turn professional the measure you have to come up against is much higher. Some blow that measure away and some fall far short of it. Some have a limited talent and make the most of it and some just get plain lucky. I definately think that Hohaia stands in the last category - he works hard at getting the most out of what he has but has also managed to drop lucky with some of his selections. There are plenty of players out there who have medals because of the side they were in - I dont use that as a yard stick to judge how good they are, I prefer to look how they play currently - and for this year Lance Hohaia is not playing well in any position he is put in.

I think Wello has had a mixed season. That positional sense that he is well known for did seam to have slipped in some games. There were years ( or so it seamed) when a kick in the air never hit the ground at Saints. Hence Wellens Bomb disposal flag.

This year there have been a few occasions where it has been more noticable that balls kicked up for the FB have been left to bounce rather than been taken on the full. Also there have been occasions where breaks have gone through the Saints line and the player going through has just ghosted past Wellens, the worst being Hock. A FB does not have to be fast to get in the face of a player coming forwards, if Hock could burn Wellens off on the angle, then it did get me worrying.

A season is a long time in RL though and Wellens has been having some decent games too. As I said I thought he did alot right yesterday and saying he just runs down the left does not justify the input into the game yesterday. He was MOM for me yesterday.

But the big thing for me is the future, when Wellens came in it was to replace patch who also was becoming pedestrain in defence on high kicks and chasing down a man going through a broken line. We blooded Wellens and the FB slot at Saints was solid for a decade.

At the moment we seam to be denying possible replacements the same oppertunity we gave wellens and so we could be letting future FB's pass us by and the chance to develop their skills in that role too. I would not say every game but some games I would have liked to see possible future FB's given the oppertunity to develop that role. Who better to learn the game from than one of the best FB's in SL.

My fear is we play Wellens until it's way beyond him then throw in candidate after candidate with no Wellens to Fallback on or learn from. The difficulty is if Wellens does not play FB, to give another guy a chance to get that first grade experience, then where do we play him??

2nd Row/LF?
Centre?
Bench?

I don't think he is a one trick pony and he could play another role. My hope is that Brown likes to be a tinker man and he will move Wellens about a bit to see where else he may contribute and who else maybe the long term replacement at FB.

I can understand Rush and Cunningham not doing this as they have nothing to gain with experimenting with a side that is not theirs to mess with.

That's a good point. Wello isn't getting the criticism from other people he was a couple of years ago when he dropping every bomb that went his way, simply because he's now not even reaching them. It's the same with tries, in the good old days at KR, he have made try saving tackles almost every game and certainly every big game. Now a Wellens tackle is a rare occurance, again because he doesn't get there anymore.

I would LOVE someone to do an analysis of the tries we've conceded this season and where Wello was when it happened. He almost always arrives at the scene as the try scorer is getting up, and takes it out on the referee. The mindless Saints fans then don't see him miss a tackle, so don't put a black mark in his book.