no.

Soundly beaten in the ruck AGAIN and I'm sick of seeing us miss tackles after an offload. We can't handle them.

We are (potentially) going to have another two matches against them and I can't see us winning either of them.

Possibly not. But don't we play them before or after Wembley? Hopefully their minds will be elsewhere.

I don't get it. We can't handle their pace and the speed they play the game at. Yet two are their three props tonight were 38 years old, Burrow, McGuire and Sinfield all over 30. Why can't we come up with a gameplan to prevent it? That's the most worrying thing about tonight. We knew it was coming, the coach knew it was coming and the players all knew it was coming. Yet it came anyway.

For me the most obvious way to beat Leeds is to slow them down. Get number in the tackle, artificially like Wigan do. And fight at the play the ball to keep them down. Tonight they were pushing forward, pinching two or three metres a play the ball, or going over or round the markers. Stop that happening. And get in their faces, stop giving them so much time. You let Burrow and McGuire run laterally across the whole pitch and they will find a gap. And we've got to kick better. It was truly amateurish tonight from everyone who kicked.

You forgot about their fantastic offloading game. You need to stop if to slow them down like dire did twice.

Warrington stop the offloads because, they won the collusion, and the overall forward battle. Saints showed more glimpses than in the previous games against Leeds. But, still lost the forward battle IMO.

Aaah, the old Northern [ifighting spirit[/i in evidence again, I see.



You mean the team guys like Walmsley, Sav, Percy, Vea (when on) were punching holes through all night? The side which couldn't have gained more assistance from our two halves had they bribed them with a million pounds pre-game?

In case you don't realise - unbeatable sides shouldn't be [iclinging onto a four-point lead with twenty minutes to go with the opponent having all the momentum and rightly fancying his chances.[/i

Some of our lads played as well as they have all season tonight. Certainly Sav. Unfortunately fifteen men (who were cut down to thirteen by our rotten injury luck) were badly let down by two.

Sure, some of you can say it wouldn't have made any difference had Vea & Greenwood stayed on, or Walsh made every tackle and kicked into space as often as he put it down Hardaker's throat, or Burns broke the advantage line at any point - but we all know that's pure bull.

Given our complete ineptitude in the halves I'm amazed we played as well as we did.

Let's be realistic here.

Leeds weren't clinging on to anything. They completely bossed and controlled the majority of the game but for a 15min period in the second half when we scored two.

Savelio was very good, as was Walmsley (Jones and Vea when they were on the pitch were good too) but I think you're being generous about the rest of the pack who were soundly beaten by their opposite numbers.

If you're not able to control Leeds and their offloading game then you will lose.

100% agree. We score flattered us. I bet KC couldn't beleive we was still in that game at half time. They have Been far suppior than us in all three games.

They have better backs, better halves and better pack. We can beat them for sure but Id say they would beat us four times from five.

Leeds are good side and good club.

Are you the Rugby League equivalent to Lord Haw Haw or someone?



When Saints close to 4 (with our starting back row off the pitch, I should add) the game is on. No amount of self-defeatist moping (seriously, why don't you just surrender and do us all a favour?

) changes this fact.

Leeds this year are surprising everyone, especially their fans who wrote them off before the season started.
The team itself is what wins games rather than individuals. Tremendous spirit and desire is evident, and Sinfield controls the tempo. When do you see Leeds panic? It's a 80 minute game plan, they stick to

Next season will be different, with the class of players retiring, but this year, they look like they want every trophy available

I suppose Saints will need (prefer) to meet Leeds in the qualifying play off rather than Old Trafford. You won't beat Leeds there, and there's not many Saints fans would disagree

Warrington practice the 'dark arts' when playing Leeds. Holding down, plenty of niggle, borderline tactics. It disrupts Leeds' flow. This is how they control the ruck speed against us.

Saints and Leeds don't play the game in this manner.

TBH when Warrington have beaten us (Leeds) this season I don't think they've done anything tactically amazing which stopped us. Just think we've been off colour those days and passes didn't stick and they've played with a desperation to win. Ben Westwood will still be banned for them when we play them next week and he's been the key for those two wins leading from the front so he'll be a massive loss.

Not so generous in defeat, after all.

ROFLMAO!!

I remember 2011. We just couldn't beat Wigan. We played them six times that season and we lost the first four, sometimes quite hansomely. But clearly eventually we learned how to play them because we beat them in the play offs: not once, but twice, and by the same score.

Because we came closer this time than the last twice, I'm crossing my fingers that 2015 will be a repeat of 2011 but obviously this time with Leeds.

It was closer this time but was has been overlooked in Mugwump's clinging onto the 'comeback' Saints made is this......Saints played last Friday, Leeds only on Sunday.

Give Leeds an equal turnaround of 7 days or God forbid Leeds have the 7 day turnaround whilst Saints only have 5 days then how close do you think that Semi Final goes?

Not to mention we went 60 mins without our starting hooker in Aiton. Granted Burrow gives us an excitement factor but we missed Aiton in the middle particularly defensively as Burrow doesn't defend there when on so leaves more work for the forwards in the middle without a 30/40 tackles hooker beside them.

Sorry ThePrinter, but that's not really a fair manner of looking at things. The turnaround stuff is neither here nor there - the game is littered with wins for sides with a shorter turnaround and a longer one.

The injuries stuff could easily be twisted (we lost Greenwood and Vea in the game also, you lost JJB as well).

The reality is you beat us and deserved to do so. You could have been out of sight in half an hour, but you weren't regardless of what we say or don't say. We were within 4 of you when Masoe knocked on in your half when we had much momentum. Swings and roundabouts as they say.

The only caveat I'd offer as a Saints fan, is that I honestly do believe Saints have a lot of improvement on the showings we've put up against Leeds this year (if you're interested, check the QUITTING thread where I've listed four), I'm not convinced Leeds can massively improve on the showings you've put in on us.

I've followed Saints for too long to write them off and I won't be doing it this year either. It'll still take a mighty fine effort to knock us over in the Play Offs, especially if we start to remedy some of the issues we've shown against you. However, right now, you're big favourites, no doubt. Again though, arrogantly dismissing us is something I'd be wary of doing as a Leeds fan. Admittedly, our recent history against you gives you a lot of confidence but that comes to an end let me tell you. It was you guys that did it to our legends starting in 2007, the very same could easily happen to yourselves in 2015.

Not dismissing Saints' chances but it doesn't alter the results between us so far.

To ignore the turnaround thing is kind of head in sand stuff though. To claim their's a equal list of short turnaround wins neither holds up or highlights not every one of those will be a game between 1st vs 2nd in a cup semi final. You can't honestly believe an extra two days rest for Leeds (or even two days less for Saints) wouldn't alter a thing about the game?

As for the injuries. You get a 2nd rower get injured then you roll another 2nd row on in a straight swap. Aiton who defends in the traditional hooker position in the middle making 30/40 tackles goes off and the 'replacement' in Burrow comes on and defends next to Hall and everyone has to move in one. Imagine Roby going off and his replacement has to defend out wide, what effect would that have on your props not having Roby (or a replacement) to defend with them in the middle? Very significant indeed.

You've beaten us fair and square on all three occasions.

I do believe the extra day or two is a red herring. I've seen us win Grand Finals after a fortnight off, I've seen us win without it. I've seen us lose to teams with a shorter turnaround and win in similar situations etc. Sure, in theory you'd have less energy but I think in games like this, adrenaline takes over. Second half, you were kicking to touch a lot anyhow because the manner in which you start games saps plenty from you.

Injuries, yeah they matter a lot. It's no excuse anyway, they happen and we get on with it. Vea was a huge loss in that particular game. He's quickly become a big part of our set up. I think we've only really recognised just how big he is for us in the couple of games since he's been back (and now gone). Like for like in theory but it takes something away.

Nevertheless, you won, we didn't. You deserved it. Good luck to you for the final and hopefully, we'll get another shot at you later in the season.

Phil clarke on sky looked into the short turnaround thing and said the evidence shows that the short turnaround doesn't hinder anyone. He went into his usual crap with stats etc to come to the conclusion

I think leeds and saints are the best two teams in the league . That does not mean either Leeds or Saints are guaranteed to win anything .
Wigan can play a spoiling game and upset the applecart. We played well last Friday and deserved our victory. If we played you at old trafford I would think it would be anybody's game.
So the answer to your question, yes you can beat Leeds. From a rugby point of veiw a Leeds -Saints grand final would suit me, we would see a decent game conducted in good spirit, as per last Friday .
Fingers crossed it will not feature Wigan .

The thing is we haven't learnt our lessons from the 3 encounters, we have the worse half backs and full back in super league for defence, Leeds just ran across the line until eventually they came across these 3 players and went through the turnstiles.
We are reasonable against teams below us but a poor second when we play Leeds, we could play Leeds 5 times this season but its the last one that counts.

I think the main lesson you could learn ,would be to ask Walsh to stop kicking direct to our full back.
He is rock solid under the high ball,just like wellens in his prime. I could not believe how often you gave the ball away.
Surely you won't repeat that mistake next time we meet you.

We undoubtedly have the worst scrum half in the league on defence. I can't really make a judgement on Quinlan (other than he's quite small) since he's only been here for a few weeks. There's nothing wrong with Burns. The guy tackles like a demon.

At times, like when he ended JJBs night. He does however miss an awful lot of tackles. Look at the Hull KR game and Dixon's try. He misses the tackle that creates the break upfield then misses the tackle on Dixon that allows him to score.

He misses tackles because he attempts a lot of tackles. The guy has a terrific appetite for the kind of dirty work most halves prefer not to get involved in. But he is only a half-back, which means he's going to get smoked once in a while.

I can deal with Burns missing the odd tackle in the same way I did when Sean Long was beaten.

What I can't deal with is a scrum half who has all the lateral mobility of Long John Silver.

Well, they've lost Sinfield, Peacock, Aiton, possibly JJB as well for next season...2 of them are greats of the game. Aiton is a cracking little hooker and JJB has been a top servant for them.

It'll be interesting to see how they get on next season.