It's time Nathan Brown put his words into actions and dropped certain players. Forget how big of names they are and draft in the lads like Saveilo, Walker, Richards and Thompson.

These so called big names need to be sent to our dual reg clubs and let them slum it for a while. I might even put some steel into them.

I'm sick of hearing how good our squad is on paper and excuses being made for certain players with silly little stats. All I'm hearing today "Mose was our best forward" so what! He might have been the better of a complete crap pack. That pack is awful and without Manu and Amor it's utter awful.

They have even dragged Robes down to their level. The once great james Roby looks like a amateur player. Sia is another that's dropped down the Mose and co level. Sia and robes never played bad, even them at 60% was better than most in super league but now they are as bad as Lms,Mose, turner etc.

We need to admit our level and IMHO it's 5th placed team in the table.

Not sure on a few of those you've mentioned to be honest. Walker being one. Thought Greenwood struggled today but wasn't on his own. Thompson had a dig.

Greenwood was injured at Bradford so he may have been playing injured. I'm not impressed by Walker at all. Thompson has looked ok though. Relatively speaking that is.

Hope Jones' injury isn't a bad one. Really need him back as he is one who gives everything. Turner was poor again. Need to have him at right centre and Percival on the left with Swift back on the wing. I'd rather Dawson centre/wing than Turner.

The best teams are better teams than the sum of their individual parts - at the moment the sum of our individual parts is higher than our team performance (as you mention with roby's performances!)

When you look at individual performances today, there's nothing particularly wrong with them, it's the line speed, aggression, tackling technique, attitude etc is where we were let down - and that all stems from one place.

Instead of treating the ball with respect, 3 different players look for miracle balls after making a break - do they no longer have faith in their team mates to capitalise on the break on the next tackle? Our wingers are jumping in - a sign they don't have faith in the men inside them in defence - and were doing a terrible job of protecting Walsh to limit him form doing defensive work - time and again today Waterhouse isolated him - he needs more protection. As a team, were just not clicking. No structure, no attitude and seemingly no belief in one another. I feel like everyone is working not to be blamed for defeat rather than contributing to a victory.

If you look at our good performances this year, it all stems from working as a team. Whether that is because the youngsters fit as a "team" better, there are senior player politics behind the scenes, or what, i don't know, but I don't know who will be the one to fix it.

Oh, and we need, for the love of god to stop sending lomax makinson and swift (and Dawson) in on the first second and third every single game, it's like sending lambs to slaughter, and means on every set were playing the ball on the third on our own 10 metre line. It's a fine tactic for Leeds with hall (as big as a prop) and hardaker, but just doesn't work with our diminutive slight wingers.

Yeah I know, I was at the game. Surprised he started today though, rather than starting from the bench. Thompson has something about him though for me but we'll have to wait and see.

Might be his age, but I don't think Thompson is a prop. Could go well as a lock though, already better than lms at it and that's lms' better position!

Surely it comes from the top, meaning the Chairman.
When Lenagan bought Wigan prior to the 2008 season he had a coach who had brought us from being a relegation team to a semi final team. IL said winning trophies was why he bought the club. End of 2009 Noble went and Mcguire was appointed after a lengthy search for the right coach by Lenagan.
2010 Mcguire brought in only one player, then won the league and the GF.
between them Lenagan and Mcguire changed the culture of the club. Wane succeeded McGuire in 2012. Both Mcguire and Wane won three trophies each.

I do think your Chairman has to go down the same route. He needs to find a coach who will change the culture of the club. Brown has brought his culture from Hudds to Saints. Start a season well then fade into oblivion, which is what I think will happen to Saints this year. Amor's return may stem the slide.
He then has to sign the right players and unload those not good enough.

A long road for suffering fans but as a Wigan fan who well remembers 2006 under Millward the change is remarkable. The performance by a makeshift side v Leeds proves this IMO. There again your younger player did the same v Leeds. Perhaps a more ruthless approach of "play well and you're in, play poorly and you're out" should be implemented. I don't think you will go far wrong with that.
Our younger players played for themselves and the shirt v Leeds, didn't yours do the same? Your fans are calling for players with pride and passion, you have them at your club you just need a coach who'll play them.
If Brown won't select them then your Chairman needs to take action.
If he doesn't it will be same old, same old!

Antony Walker is one of the worst players to ever put on a jersey. People wanted rid of Clough yet he is twice the player Walker will ever be. His not even that (YOUNG). Apparantly he trains well. Never been impressed with him, even for the 18's and 20's. Get Savelio in and stop fuc*ing about.

I've been calling for players to be dropped all season but I'm going to argue against myself on this one occasion - I don't think THIS weekend is the time to do it.

In my opinion, if you've had the gauntlet thrown down by your coach and an icon like Paul Wellens, you see how people react.

I genuinely believe that this weekend could be the last game in a saints shirt for those who don't react positively.

I'd be playing our "first choice" available 17 against Huddersfield then making changes, perhaps PERMANENT changes, for the week after based on who does and does not perform. I don't necessarily mean did they have a great game or not, I mean did they look ready to run through walls or not. Everyone can have an off day, but it's the effort, application and pride that I want to see back.

I don't know whether anyone has heard [url=http://www.redvee.net/interviews/Wello.mp3this interview[/url with Paul Wellens, much fuller than the one on Sky, but I agree with him about the mental attitude. However, why we are still playing the players who are showing a poor mental attitude is very much down to the coaching staff.

Fully agree.

I was never Wellens biggest fan as a player, BUT I love his passion for his own town club and the game in general. He was really hurting yesterday as he was in the Cup defeat at HKR last year. You can hear his emotion and anger in that interview.

Do you need to bring in some local lads who, although they may not be the best in their position will fight for their life to wear the shirt.
Paul Clough IMO was one of those players, and would have been a better keep than say LMS.

Looking from the outside I do wonder if there is some sort of power struggle going on at Saints, I found Browns comments very interesting. He sounded like a coach just waiting for THAT phone call.

I fear that you are correct.

We appear to have a club that is all about names and reputation rather than effort and commitment.

How else can one explain LMS being a continued certain selection? It is actually ridiculous that he can keep trotting out onto the pitch each week after yet another disgraceful performance.

We also have a fanbase who feeds this ethos, buying into how good the team is "on paper" and how "average" Wigan are, and only just acknowledging now that games (and trophies) are won through effort and commitment rather than names and salaries.

The approach of the whole club is dishonest, in the sense that there are too many players who can't or won't put in the sheer effort required to succeed, a position worsened through having a coach that refuses to drop them when they continue to fall short. It's all too comfortable.

Harsh words were needed - EMac started the ball rolling with little response. Now Wellens and Brown have finally come out publically with what the fans have known for some time - we have a squad full of soft, corner cutting players with vastly inflated senses of worth.

Yes, bringing Amor, Laffranchi, Manu, Swift, Percival, Wheeler into the team would strengthen us BUT without a culture shift we'll continue to be bullied off the park by more committed (not necessarily more naturally talented) teams.

Just look at the reaction when McManus bagged the whole playing staff from players to coaches! We put in a sub par awful performance against London!

The is no reaction in this team, we've got to many players that don't care. The likes of Turner, Mose, Lms, laffranchi etc are just to happy win or lose.

Even tho wello is best his best and shouldn't really play, he still has pride in himself and the club but certain other players who have ability haven't got and pride.

I think it's unfair to lump LaFrank in there, I haven't ever doubted his effort or commitment. He's not the barnstorming prop/back row we wanted, but he's not someone I think coasts through games.

I don't think anyone has disputed that effort & commitment are needed.

Indeed, the point that myself and several others have actually made is that 'on paper' we have a very strong team - but the problem is they're not playing together to anywhere near the sum of their parts, and lack of aggression/commitment/effort is a huge factor in that.

wi*an have taken players like Clubb, Sarginson, Dudson (who were hardly stand-out players in poor teams) and moulded them into a team that consistently performs well above the sum of its parts. Look at Matty Smith; he was given several chances at Saints but rarely showed anything more than a glimmer of the ability that we demand from a halfback (including looking out of his depth in the 2010 GF), yet he's been fantastic for wi*an and won the Lance Todd.

The teams under Maguire & Wane play a game based on aggression, passion and organisation. Their attack is structured and players do as they're coached to do.

In contrast, all too often we look disinterested, weak and disorganised in attack, relying on an off-the-cuff moment of skill.

I don't buy that the players are not good enough.

This is a better team than last year. What is lacking is the effort. As has been said elsewhere, you could take those players out of the team and put them elsewhere and they would perform better.

Maybe what Big Mac needs to do is go to Shenton, Smith et al and ask them what has changed for them since leaving Saints.

I'm also not 100% sure it's down to the coach or the 'old guard'.

The coach has changed, there is very little in the way of the old Guard, if anything Wellens is the old guard along with Wilkin.

I do agree there seems to be a fear of dropping players. LMS has had poor games, so have other players yet the only person dropped so far was a good performing Lance for Wilkin????

My fear is that it's not so much the old guard. But the old players passing on old mentality.

We have a lot of ex players knocking about, are they the top people for their job?
Do they pass on a mentality of we are the best, rather than the mentality of we need to work hard to be the best.

We've got rid of Royce and this looks very similar. Clearing out a coach when the problem is systemic. Could Wane come in and change this team??? Or would 6 months down the road, would we be hit with the same issues that come up again and again. Promise dashed by commitment and effort.

Is there a beer drinking culture? Are players not being full time professionals. To me the simple solution is sack someone. But it's a road we have travelled, at the start of the year I would have been sorry that Sia was going back to the NRL, now I'd question whether we'd miss him which is a massive turn around in 2 months.

There are problems but I'm not sure sacking Brown this week is the answer. Although he seems powerless to change anything either.

Were is the power base in this club? who allows players not to turn out with the right attitude?

It does seem to be like what was happening under Royce. But at least we are winning games under brown.

We need a coach who is going to come in and change the culture at this club. Make the selection decisions required and to instil some belief that we can overcome Leeds and Wigan. I'm not sure that the coach coming out saying we are way behind Leeds and Wigan is helpful.

If only there was someone to turn to. A strong character who will take no from these players. A RL equivalent of Van Gaal would be perfect.

Basil?

We're 2nd on the table - Basil was dragging an all star team into decline by the time he left and has been utterly atrocious wherever he has been since.

No thanks

Clough was a great asset to saints gutted when he was sidelined. Walker can do more minutes than Saveilo at the moment. He is a young lad, give him time he will be better for it

Totally disagree no player in any team goes out to lose a game. They are professionals and try and play to the best of their ability. Unbelievable comment

Not so at all. Some players will do the barest minimum when on the pitch, which is not at all professional. You only have to remember 2011 and what Jammer did on the pitch and then watch Puletua do nothing by comparison to know that there are degrees of attitude.